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#1 2010-06-01 18:38:31

ReynardFox
Pilgrim
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 2006-01-03
Posts: 35

On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

THIS THREAD IS SUBJECT TO MASSIVE SPOILERS. DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER IF THIS BOTHERS YOU.

Now, with that out of the way...

There are a few details about the wisewoman Valada Geloë that I thought were particularly interesting. It wasn't until a recent reread that I came to reconsider a few details about her, details that I'm not sure why I missed the first time, but could still be pretty interesting nonetheless.

Of the diverse cast of characters, I noticed that Geloë is the only mortal who has yellow eyes. That's not particularly strange. Though it's an unusual colour and something of a rarity, it is genetically possible. What struck me is that of the characters, only the Gardenborn seem to display eye colours like this — excepting the Hikeda'ya, whose eyes are black, only the Zida'ya seem to have consistent eye colours of amber, gold, or something between the two. Theoretically speaking, this could also include yellow, or variants thereof.

Aditu also says something very interesting in To Green Angel Tower, when Geloë is mortally wounded by the Hikeda'ya:

Aditu hesitated a moment longer, then stepped back and lowered her head. "As you wish, Valada Geloë. Farewell, Ruyan's Own. Farewell . . . my friend. Sinya'a du-n'sha é-d'treyesa inro."

—Tad Williams, To Green Angel Tower, p. 540

According to the appendix in the back of the book, this Sithi phrase translates to, "May you find the light that shines over the bow."

I used to think that this referred to a weapon, a hunting or composite bow of some kind. Given the Sithi penchant for archery, and Aditu's own skill as referenced in Stone of Farewell, I thought it wouldn't really be all that unusual. But given how she specifically invokes "Ruyan's Own," I'm beginning to wonder if it was a different kind of "bow" — more specifically, the bow of a ship.

Aditu also tells Josua something interesting when Geloë speaks her last:

Josua looked up. His eyes were bright with tears. "To the last," he said, almost in anger, "she tried to help us. Oh, God the Merciful, she was a brave soul."
"An old soul," Aditu said quietly, but did not elaborate. She seemed shaken.


—Tad Williams, To Green Angel Tower, p. 549

Finally, one last piece of the puzzle. (I'm getting to the point, I swear! *sobs*)

When the Sithi host is preparing to attack Naglimund alongside the Hernystiri, Likimeya very directly tells Eolair that it is indeed possible for relations between the two races:

She fluttered her fingers. A cloud of birds leaped up and into the tree branches overhead, momentarily hiding her from view with the blur of their wings. "Long ago, when mortals and Zida'ya were closer . . ." She made a strange gesture. "It could be. We know it can happen."

—Tad Williams, To Green Angel Tower, p. 380

With all of that in mind, I'm starting to think that Geloë is a descendant of the Tinukeda'ya. It's mentioned that they can shape themselves, over time:

"We are all Ocean's Children," said the dwarrow gravely. "Some decided to stay near the sea which forever separates us from the Garden of our birth. Others chose more hidden and secretive ways, like the earth's dark places and the task of shaping stone. You see, unlike our cousins the Zida'ya and Hikeda'ya, we Children of the Navigator can shape ourselves just as we shape other things."

—Tad Williams, To Green Angel Tower, p. 871

...And that, in turn, leads me to my point (which I know you're all rejoicing over, now! Rey talks too much!).

Taking all of that into consideration, together, I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps Geloë was either a Tinukeda'ya that had decided to stay near the forest, or if she was descended of the Tinukeda'ya in some form or another; either directly or across a few generations.

I myself haven't really heard about any theories proposing what exactly Geloë is, or where she comes from... and this is probably just a crazy scatterbrained theory anyway. Well, I thought it was kind of neat, anyway, even if it's just probably an overactive imagination and too much idle research. *scratches the back of her head* Anybody got any other theories? Or thoughts ont his one, mayhap...?

 

#2 2010-06-01 19:41:17

Firsfron of Ronchester
Pilgrim
From: Ronchester, in Ronsten Ard
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 7000

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

ReynardFox wrote:

Aditu hesitated a moment longer, then stepped back and lowered her head. "As you wish, Valada Geloë. Farewell, Ruyan's Own. Farewell . . . my friend. Sinya'a du-n'sha é-d'treyesa inro."

Ah, yes, the infamous "Salad dressing" reference, much-discussed in Tad circles. Or at least in those Tad circles which discuss MS&T.

Do not fear, Reynard; you are not the first reader to ponder on Geloe's golden eyes, so like those of some of the Gardenborn. The Tinukeda'ya's ability to shape themselves, albeit over great spans of time, seems somewhat similar to Geloe's shape-shifting abilities. And her physical description is quite similar to that of Gan Itai/Nin Reisu's in the text...

The only partial discrepancy is the eye color. The Zida'ya's eyes are golden (except Kuroyi's); the Hikeda'ya's eyes are black or violet (Tad told me in 1997 or 1998 that the black eyes are actually just dark, dark violet), except Utuk'ku's, whose eyes are milky-white, due to being so old that the pigment has been lost; the Tinukeda'ya's eyes are black... so what is Geloe doing with golden eyes if she is descended from and/or is Tinukeda'ya? Still, if she can shape her body, eye color may be a piece of cake...


And then I'll be all, "Eh?  Speak up sonny!  My ears don't work so good.  I'M OLD!"
--Rook

 

#3 2010-06-02 04:12:58

Neemo
Pilgrim
From: Hamilton, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-03-28
Posts: 565
Website

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

in the MST re-read ages ago didnt we kick around the idea that she may actually have been the offspring of Ruyan

looking at it again...is it a possibility that Geloe is a half breed Zida'ya/Tinukeda'ya ?

 

#4 2010-06-02 07:42:27

Firsfron of Ronchester
Pilgrim
From: Ronchester, in Ronsten Ard
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 7000

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

Child, descendant, and lover were discussed, yes. Mixed race is also a possibility. As is 'none of the above'.


And then I'll be all, "Eh?  Speak up sonny!  My ears don't work so good.  I'M OLD!"
--Rook

 

#5 2010-06-02 12:53:20

ReynardFox
Pilgrim
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 2006-01-03
Posts: 35

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

I still think it's pretty interesting! And yeah, I forgot to mention that in my original post. The Zida'ya eyes are various shades of amber-gold, but not yellow, and Williams always describes her eyes as yellow. That's also an interesting little discrepancy to the rest of the theory (and kind of blows everything I wrote out of the water if you take it at its most literal, whoops).

Myself, I would think that she would be a descendant of the Tinukeda'ya, perhaps several generations removed. The only discrepancy is the yellow eyes. I believe the Tinukeda'ya have dark eyes, as Firsfron said... but again, it could be that they're just normal human eyes — yellow eyes are genetically possible, though it is rather rare.

Hmm. Food for thought, I guess. Unless we have the opportunity to go back to Osten Ard, we may never know. ;-)

 

#6 2010-06-02 13:59:35

Firsfron of Ronchester
Pilgrim
From: Ronchester, in Ronsten Ard
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 7000

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

Here's where you need to read The Burning Man.


And then I'll be all, "Eh?  Speak up sonny!  My ears don't work so good.  I'M OLD!"
--Rook

 

#7 2010-06-02 14:05:30

ReynardFox
Pilgrim
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 2006-01-03
Posts: 35

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Here's where you need to read The Burning Man.

YEEEES. Not that I really needed an excuse to read it, but yes! I really need to hunt it down. More Osten Ard to read, hooray~

 

#8 2010-06-02 19:42:54

Firsfron of Ronchester
Pilgrim
From: Ronchester, in Ronsten Ard
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 7000

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

ReynardFox wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Here's where you need to read The Burning Man.

YEEEES. Not that I really needed an excuse to read it, but yes! I really need to hunt it down. More Osten Ard to read, hooray~

Here is the link to the hardcover edition of Legends, from Amazon.com. Here is the paperback version, volume three. If you get the paperback version, be sure to get volume three, as this is the only volume with The Burning Man in it.

Here is the link on Amazon to the graphic novel version of The Burning Man, also worth getting.

Last edited by Firsfron of Ronchester (2010-06-02 19:43:45)


And then I'll be all, "Eh?  Speak up sonny!  My ears don't work so good.  I'M OLD!"
--Rook

 

#9 2010-06-03 12:56:43

ReynardFox
Pilgrim
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 2006-01-03
Posts: 35

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Here is the link to the hardcover edition of Legends, from Amazon.com. Here is the paperback version, volume three. If you get the paperback version, be sure to get volume three, as this is the only volume with The Burning Man in it.

Here is the link on Amazon to the graphic novel version of The Burning Man, also worth getting.

Oooh, thanks! I am, however, slightly confused. The hardcover entry for Legends shows that the Tad Williams story is an Otherland entry, but after doing some digging around, it seems that the first book is the one that has The Burning Man in it. This would be good if it were actually in the second volume, since that's the one that my library has.

Unfortunately, my library doesn't have the other one. Foo. I guess I can go look for the paperback volume, though. And the graphic novel looks intriguing.

Thanks for the info!

Edit: My bad, the library does have both volumes! And apparently one of them is not actually sorted properly, and does not come up when you run a search for the title or the full title. Durhurr. :P

Last edited by ReynardFox (2010-06-03 12:58:44)

 

#10 2010-06-03 13:15:08

cyan
Pilgrim
From: Oakland
Registered: 2005-02-16
Posts: 21449

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

ReynardFox wrote:

Aditu also says something very interesting in To Green Angel Tower, when Geloë is mortally wounded by the Hikeda'ya:

Aditu hesitated a moment longer, then stepped back and lowered her head. "As you wish, Valada Geloë. Farewell, Ruyan's Own. Farewell . . . my friend. Sinya'a du-n'sha é-d'treyesa inro."

—Tad Williams, To Green Angel Tower, p. 540

According to the appendix in the back of the book, this Sithi phrase translates to, "May you find the light that shines over the bow."

I used to think that this referred to a weapon, a hunting or composite bow of some kind. Given the Sithi penchant for archery, and Aditu's own skill as referenced in Stone of Farewell, I thought it wouldn't really be all that unusual. But given how she specifically invokes "Ruyan's Own," I'm beginning to wonder if it was a different kind of "bow" — more specifically, the bow of a ship.

It was always my impression this "bow" refered to the boat-part rather than the archery-thing.

 

#11 2010-06-03 13:36:14

ReynardFox
Pilgrim
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 2006-01-03
Posts: 35

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

cyan wrote:

It was always my impression this "bow" refered to the boat-part rather than the archery-thing.

The funny thing is, I hadn't actually considered that option until my fifth or so reread of To Green Angel Tower. Funny, eh? But Aditu's mention of "Ruyan's Own" got me thinking about that detail. I think it's an interesting group of hypotheses, anyway. If Mr. Williams ever goes back to Osten Ard, it would be most interesting to see some more about Geloë! I always thought she was a neat character, right from the beginning.

That, and I loves me a good mystery. ;-D

 

#12 2010-07-24 15:46:48

Garuvul
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-07-22
Posts: 2

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

Forgive my ignorance as to the different race's names, but the dwarrows ( is that the right race? ) are not ageless as the sithi are, but if Geloe was ageless - as it appears she was - and she bears so many sithi traits, and is able to shape herself, could she be the child of a sithi-dwarrow pairing?

 

#13 2010-07-27 12:01:45

Dimma
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-06-12
Posts: 13

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

Garuvul wrote:

if Geloe was ageless - as it appears she was - and she bears so many sithi traits, and is able to shape herself, could she be the child of a sithi-dwarrow pairing?

The ageless state isn't only an inherited attribute, it can also be learnt. So I guess a human can learn to be ageless like the Sithi.

From volume 6, around p. 280: Zid'ya withhold the secret of life from Tinuked'ya.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

The Tinukeda'ya's ability to shape themselves, albeit over great spans of time, seems somewhat similar to Geloe's shape-shifting abilities.

Is there a chance Geloë shifts shape using the "words of transformation"? Since she said to Deornoth that her magic has its price.

When Pryrates wanted to learn the "words of transformation" the Red Hand member said it would cost great pain to use them.

It seems Pryrates felt more pain though, but their transformations seem more similar to each other than the slower shape shifts of Tinuked'ya.

Last edited by Dimma (2010-08-19 13:31:04)

 

#14 2010-09-03 09:00:45

Dimma
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-06-12
Posts: 13

Re: On the Nature of Valada Geloë (SPOILERS!)

ReynardFox wrote:

Aditu also says something very interesting in To Green Angel Tower, when Geloë is mortally wounded by the Hikeda'ya:

Aditu hesitated a moment longer, then stepped back and lowered her head. "As you wish, Valada Geloë. Farewell, Ruyan's Own. Farewell . . . my friend. Sinya'a du-n'sha é-d'treyesa inro."

Hmm, I wonder what "Ruyan's Own" means as I'm not very good with English; what relation does such an expression indicate?

Descendant? (Tinuked'ya)
Wife?
Crew?
Commander? (Zid'ya, I guess)

 

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