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  •  » A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

#176 2017-07-11 02:47:58

Kenan
Pilgrim
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8752
Website

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Some reread notes:

p19: the Rimmersman Floki calls the Norns "vit refar" - white foxes - vit(a) rävar in Swedish.

p29: Yaarike tells a tale to Viyeki of what will happen the Rimmersmen reach the gates of Nakkiga while Utuk'ku still sleeps, and Akhenabi and the Order of Song were to take power. I sense a deep significance in these words but can't quite say what it is.

p64: Suno'ku says "...we have not entirely exhausted our resources. There are things in the lower levels [of Nakkiga]... dreadful things." - Suggesting these are at the Norns disposal to use in conflict. Is she talking about the Lightless Ones? It doesn't feel like it (The Lighless Ones are too hard to reach/acquire). But then what could it be?

p65-66: Something possesses the Singer Tzayin-Kha's body and speaks with Akhenabi's voice. Do we get confirmation this was Akhenabi? The inhabiting spirit tosses another Norn into a wall so they die. Suno-ku points out the needlessnes of such an act and claims it was a dark spirit trying to undermine her strategy. But if it was a "dark spirit" as Suno'ku claims, shouldn't they work with the Norns? If not, there are clearly ("dark") spirits that don't want the Norns to succeed - or perhaps force some other action out of them.

p113: the Chronicler refers to the Breathing Harp under Nakkiga as "the Well of Eternity", significance of this???

An aside. I scanned through MST for information about the harp and came to the very interesting end of chapter 7 in TGAT. There's a discription of the harp and the pool, here it seems they are different things, the harp hovering in the mist above the pool. I think this suggest that the pool creates the harp with the mist, somehow. But what I found more interesting: "The Lightless Ones were chanting somewhere in the depths of Stormspike, their hollow voices tracing the shapes of songs that had been old and already forbidden back in the Lost Garden" - doesn't this confirm that The Lightless Ones were in the Garden too?

p123-4 Troop Governor Ruho'o speaks with Viyeki and mentions how his people refuse to go down into the depths (the Forbidden Deeps) of Nakkiga and that they can hear their fellow engineers who have gone missing call to them... "pleading for someone to come and wake them". And one of them had come to Ruho'o in a dream, saing "they were all lost in a darkness. A darkness that breathed."


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#177 2017-07-11 03:30:21

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Thanks for these notes, Kenan! Very interesting. If you find any more, I'd love to hear them.

Kenan wrote:

Some reread notes:
p29: Yaarike tells a tale to Viyeki of what will happen the Rimmersmen reach the gates of Nakkiga while Utuk'ku still sleeps, and Akhenabi and the Order of Song were to take power. I sense a deep significance in these words but can't quite say what it is.

Can you grab a quote from this or sum it up? I'd love to hear this again, but I lent out my copy.

p64: Suno'ku says "...we have not entirely exhausted our resources. There are things in the lower levels [of Nakkiga]... dreadful things." - Suggesting these are at the Norns disposal to use in conflict. Is she talking about the Lightless Ones? It doesn't feel like it (The Lighless Ones are too hard to reach/acquire). But then what could it be?

Well, the Lightless Ones are already being used in rituals, so I would think this could refer to the quote you found below about the Forbidden Depths.

p65-66: Something possesses the Singer Tzayin-Kha's body and speaks with Akhenabi's voice. Do we get confirmation this was Akhenabi? The inhabiting spirit tosses another Norn into a wall so they die. Suno-ku points out the needlessnes of such an act and claims it was a dark spirit trying to undermine her strategy. But if it was a "dark spirit" as Suno'ku claims, shouldn't they work with the Norns? If not, there are clearly ("dark") spirits that don't want the Norns to succeed - or perhaps force some other action out of them.

This was Akhenabi possessing her to speak to them; it's confirmed later as Akhenabi has her killed for "slighting" him and being a rival. Suno'ku lies to convince the Norns to follow her plan, because otherwise they would absolutely listen to Akhenabi as he is higher up the hierarchy (this both shows how she's clever and underlines a point TWC and HOWWL make about Norn society's absolute obedience to hierarchy is a double-edged sword.)

p113: the Chronicler refers to the Breathing Harp under Nakkiga as "the Well of Eternity", significance of this???

I can't think of any, but it makes me wonder again if Utuk'ku had the Well built or if it existed there. You might also grab the strange quote at the beginning of this part that says when Utuk'ku first came there, even she couldn't breach Nakkiga's gates but had to get herself invited in. I'm not sure what that's suggesting, but it's odd information...I don't recall the mountain having former inhabitants and it isn't elaborated.

An aside. I scanned through MST for information about the harp and came to the very interesting end of chapter 7 in TGAT. There's a discription of the harp and the pool, here it seems they are different things, the harp hovering in the mist above the pool. I think this suggest that the pool creates the harp with the mist, somehow. But what I found more interesting: "The Lightless Ones were chanting somewhere in the depths of Stormspike, their hollow voices tracing the shapes of songs that had been old and already forbidden back in the Lost Garden" - doesn't this confirm that The Lightless Ones were in the Garden too?

That sounds like they must have been in the Garden, though they could also have been taught them (or originated them, if they were "old" even in the Garden?) Could the Lightless Ones be members of whoever formerly occupied Nakkiga before Utuk'ku?

p123-4 Troop Governor Ruho'o speaks with Viyeki and mentions how his people refuse to go down into the depths (the Forbidden Deeps) of Nakkiga and that they can hear their fellow engineers who have gone missing call to them... "pleading for someone to come and wake them". And one of them had come to Ruho'o in a dream, saing "they were all lost in a darkness. A darkness that breathed."

Oh, I remember this, though at the time the significance didn't hit. Post that last one in the TWC thread! It sounds like it could be very relevant to the new trilogy. Holy crap!

 

#178 2017-07-11 05:34:10

Kenan
Pilgrim
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8752
Website

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

ajl3 wrote:

Thanks for these notes, Kenan! Very interesting. If you find any more, I'd love to hear them.

Kenan wrote:

Some reread notes:
p29: Yaarike tells a tale to Viyeki of what will happen the Rimmersmen reach the gates of Nakkiga while Utuk'ku still sleeps, and Akhenabi and the Order of Song were to take power. I sense a deep significance in these words but can't quite say what it is.

Can you grab a quote from this or sum it up? I'd love to hear this again, but I lent out my copy.

Yaarike says that if the Rimmersmen breach the gate of Nakkiga and Utuk'ku still sleeps, Akhenabi and, Jikkyo, and the Order of Song (he calls them a "bloodless fellowship") will take the survivors and flee deeper into the mountain where the mortals can't follow. He goes on to say that their people will be ruled by Sorcerers, be slaves who will never see the light of day and who hide in the darkness. That they can only be called alive because they haven't yet died. The Garden will not even be a story anymore, or if it is they will be taught that the people lived in darkness there too, surrounded by stone and ruled by the masters of the order of song.

Last edited by Kenan (2017-07-11 05:34:56)


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#179 2017-07-11 14:28:16

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kenan wrote:

ajl3 wrote:

Thanks for these notes, Kenan! Very interesting. If you find any more, I'd love to hear them.

Kenan wrote:

Some reread notes:
p29: Yaarike tells a tale to Viyeki of what will happen the Rimmersmen reach the gates of Nakkiga while Utuk'ku still sleeps, and Akhenabi and the Order of Song were to take power. I sense a deep significance in these words but can't quite say what it is.

Can you grab a quote from this or sum it up? I'd love to hear this again, but I lent out my copy.

Yaarike says that if the Rimmersmen breach the gate of Nakkiga and Utuk'ku still sleeps, Akhenabi and, Jikkyo, and the Order of Song (he calls them a "bloodless fellowship") will take the survivors and flee deeper into the mountain where the mortals can't follow. He goes on to say that their people will be ruled by Sorcerers, be slaves who will never see the light of day and who hide in the darkness. That they can only be called alive because they haven't yet died. The Garden will not even be a story anymore, or if it is they will be taught that the people lived in darkness there too, surrounded by stone and ruled by the masters of the order of song.

Thanks! By Jikkyo, do you mean Jijibo? Surprised to find him and Ommu already mentioned in HOWWL. Sounds like I need to do a full reread soon. (Maybe a good board project next year? It's very short and fast paced compared to you guys attempting to reread all of Otherland or Shadowmarch.)

Doesn't Suno'ku reaffirm those thoughts about Akhenabi after the "demon" attack? I swear she has a brief aside about how Akhenabi would love if the Queen never woke up.

Last edited by ajl3 (2017-07-11 14:29:20)

 

#180 2017-07-11 14:42:13

Kenan
Pilgrim
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8752
Website

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

ajl3 wrote:

Thanks! By Jikkyo, do you mean Jijibo? Surprised to find him and Ommu already mentioned in HOWWL. Sounds like I need to do a full reread soon. (Maybe a good board project next year? It's very short and fast paced compared to you guys attempting to reread all of Otherland or Shadowmarch.)

Doesn't Suno'ku reaffirm those thoughts about Akhenabi after the "demon" attack? I swear she has a brief aside about how Akhenabi would love if the Queen never woke up.

Different people.
From the howwl appendix:
Jikkyo, Lord, a high noble of the Order of Song.

We'll definitely do a re-read together of howwl+twc at some point :) But I'm going to re-read twc now (as an aside book, probably not many pages per day)

I don't remember exactly what Suno-ku says, and I'm not sure where she said it, so let's see if someone else can remember...?


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#181 2017-07-11 15:46:30

Lord Varys
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-05-06
Posts: 70

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

I've began listening to the audiobook version of the story and although I didn't get very far as of yet I noticed that Viyeki basically has no clue who was behind the Storm King's War. He speculates at an early point, I think around the time Yaarike shares his thoughts with him about the future of the Norns under Akhenabi's Singers, that it may have been the Sacrifices or the Singers who pushed the queen and their people into this doomed war.

That even more underlines the fact that the Norns really are unable to see that their queen is running everything and responsible for everything.

She is also the one who abandoned the maintenance of their outer defenses and decided to cancel their repairing in TWC. She knows that her people will never reclaim Osten Ard or leave their mountain to live under the sunlight again. She uses them to kill everybody, after all.

In that sense blaming Akhenabi for stuff is just laying the blame at the wrong feet. Yes, he is most likely the most powerful and most influential pawn of the queen, but he is still a pawn.

 

#182 2017-07-11 19:43:03

Maladroit
Pilgrim
From: Passamaquadey
Registered: 2001-06-03
Posts: 1843

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kenan wrote:

Yaarike says that if the Rimmersmen breach the gate of Nakkiga and Utuk'ku still sleeps, Akhenabi and, Jikkyo, and the Order of Song (he calls them a "bloodless fellowship") will take the survivors and flee deeper into the mountain where the mortals can't follow. He goes on to say that their people will be ruled by Sorcerers, be slaves who will never see the light of day and who hide in the darkness. That they can only be called alive because they haven't yet died. The Garden will not even be a story anymore, or if it is they will be taught that the people lived in darkness there too, surrounded by stone and ruled by the masters of the order of song.

More of Runyan's Own? Long lost relatives of Yis-fidri & Yis-hadra?


[edited to add] Nevermind! This is what happens when I scan instead of read. I read that as the survivors escaping to the depths where there were already others dwelling, and I thought of the dwarrows.

Last edited by Maladroit (2017-07-14 17:43:26)


Maladroit, are you suggesting that imaginary chickens have no feelings?

You better be careful with that, or we might get boycotted -- well, chickencotted, I guess.  And that would make for a very paltry poultry party.  Which would be a pity.
-Tad

 

#183 2017-09-28 03:23:15

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Revising my "Suno'ku Is Alive" theory to just being her being aware of the plan to kill her and the idea of exiling her, but choosing to die at the last minute (and definitely 100% dead). Same reasons as before: Yaarike and her have a closed door meeting that's supposedly about her chewing him out for not supporting her breeding plan, we're told other times to cultivate a sign of disagreement or anger so other politicians do not know your alliances, and Viyeki does a mirror of the same scene later.

She may have been considering sticking it out in Nakkiga based on her returning inside with the others and picking up her sword, etc., only to hand them back and march out. The purposeful way she considers the mountain erupting and then moves closer also hints that she decides to die instead of self-exile (which in this theory is what Yaarike told her about at the closed door meeting).

Last edited by ajl3 (2017-09-28 19:49:38)

 

#184 2017-09-28 07:45:00

Diorna
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-07-26
Posts: 130

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

I'm at the beginning of a reread, too. Give me a few days and we can revive the discussion :)

 

#185 2017-09-28 19:49:57

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Diorna wrote:

I'm at the beginning of a reread, too. Give me a few days and we can revive the discussion :)

Looking forward to it!

 
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