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#1 2001-06-02 09:38:00

Vildar
Pilgrim
From: Ireland
Registered: 2001-06-01
Posts: 222
Website

Irish references in Tad's works.....

Oh btw, I'm from Ireland! ;-P Anyway, I've noticed a number of references to Irish culture or just to the country itself. Ireland has had a number of mentions in Otherland, I spotted two at least in Sea of Silver Light. Can't remember about the other three books off hand.

But also in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. One of the most striking references is that of the Sithi. It bears more than a resemblance to the Irish word for Fairies. Na Sídhe. I could be way off here, anybody else got some comments?

[ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: Vildar Elynos ]

 

#2 2014-01-21 09:49:55

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
Website

Re: Irish references in Tad's works.....

I bumped this ancient thread because I've been thinking a lot about Celtic influences in MS&T lately. Not just the Hernystiri language and culture; also the dolmens and menhirs in Erkynland (Hasu Vale and Thisterborg, and maybe Wentmouth), that are also Celtic or Pre-Celtic. And the old, pagan traditions of erecting Yrmansols and maypole dances, that were not exclusively Celtic, but were nonetheless part of Celtic culture.

In MS&T, it's clear that the dolmens and menhirs were not constructed by humans (else the Norns would distain using them for their ceremonies). But the pre-Aedonite culture in Erkynland, things like the Yrmansol celebration, indicates that those who settled in Erkynland came largely from Hernystir: consistent with what Tad said many years ago about the migration patterns of early humans in Osten Ard: western races being pushed eastward by later waves of migrating humans.

Some Erkynlandish place-names, too, indicate a Celt-like origin: Falshire (Fal is a river in Cornwall), and Cellodshire (Kell is a Celtic name), although other names (Erchester, Runchester) are at least in part pseudo-Latin, and "The Burning Man" makes clear that the changes in name of Er(kyn)chester happen sometime after Sulis' reign, long after the original wave of Celt-like Osten Ard residents would have come through (yet before Tethtain's reign at the Hayholt). So there must have been a second Celt-like influence in Erkynland, during the Holly King's reign in the (roughly) 900s AF.

I like how even the small details in MS&T seem so authentic: there's not just one wave of Hernystiri influence in central Osten Ard: there are at least two, over the centuries. I wouldn't be surprised if there were other layers of cultural influence hidden inside the timeline, outside of those we're explicitly told occurred when each of the kings ruled Hayholt.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#3 2014-01-21 14:51:19

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: Irish references in Tad's works.....

Everybody else would have opened a new thread.

You dig up one from the second day of Smarch's existence. Which never got a single answer.

Incredible.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#4 2014-01-21 16:13:47

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
Website

Re: Irish references in Tad's works.....

Well, no reason to waste all that bandwidth on a new thread when a perfectly old thread is still viable. "Waste not, want not," as they say.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#5 2014-01-22 03:21:17

Jeremy_Erman
Pilgrim
From: California
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 262

Re: Irish references in Tad's works.....

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

I like how even the small details in MS&T seem so authentic: there's not just one wave of Hernystiri influence in central Osten Ard: there are at least two, over the centuries. I wouldn't be surprised if there were other layers of cultural influence hidden inside the timeline, outside of those we're explicitly told occurred when each of the kings ruled Hayholt.

Talking of migrations reminds me how Tad said long ago that he had people migrate to Osten Ard from the west as a reversal of the European migrations which came from the east (Osten Ard means something likes "Eastern Land" in Rimmerspakk, I believe, so Osten Ard is the "East" to its human population rather than the "West" that Europeans speak of.)

This made me realize that the Sithi terms for mortals and non-mortals are literal as well as metaphorical: Zida'ya, "Dawn Children" references the east where the Gardenborn came from, while Sudhoda'ya "Sunset-Children" recalls the west where humans came from, as well as their mortal fate.

 

#6 2014-01-22 08:26:44

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
Website

Re: Irish references in Tad's works.....

Jeremy_Erman wrote:

Talking of migrations reminds me how Tad said long ago that he had people migrate to Osten Ard from the west as a reversal of the European migrations which came from the east (Osten Ard means something likes "Eastern Land" in Rimmerspakk, I believe, so Osten Ard is the "East" to its human population rather than the "West" that Europeans speak of.)

Yes. Tad mentioned this in the late 1990s on the TWMB (possibly elsewhere as well). He mentioned how the oldest races (for example, the Qanuc) migrated to Osten Ard and then were pushed eastward as fresh migrations from the west occurred. But one quite realistic thing is how, even though there were waves of migration, there were apparently second waves as well: the pseudo-Celtic culture was already in place in Osten Ard years before Tethtain became the Holly King and put his own mark on The Hayholt.

This made me realize that the Sithi terms for mortals and non-mortals are literal as well as metaphorical: Zida'ya, "Dawn Children" references the east where the Gardenborn came from, while Sudhoda'ya "Sunset-Children" recalls the west where humans came from, as well as their mortal fate.

Excellent point.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

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