Tad Williams' Message Board

Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- 'God damn it, you've got to be kind.'
-    Kurt Vonnegut, 1922-2007

Welcome to the message board for tadwilliams.com. All comments are welcome, whether kudos or brickbats. However, please bear in mind that Tad would like this to be a friendly, civil message board, at least in the relations between users. We reserve the right to remove postings, or even ban postings, from anyone who crosses the boundary of reasonable taste. Basically, you can argue vigorously with someone, but watch your language, okay? We have a lot of young readers as well as grown-ups, so please show them some respect.

But the main requirement here is: have fun.


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#51 2013-09-02 15:08:43

Peter
Pilgrim
From: Austria
Registered: 2001-08-23
Posts: 39207
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

I was encouraged by Ylvs to despoil these threads with my thoughts and interestingly, the one point I noted down for the purpose wasn't touched in the discussion so far:

Why are judges always angels? And why is Hell ok with that?
You could say that hell would trust heaven, because those stupid good guys can't lie, but they clearly think no such thing about Bobby Dollar, so why would they trust other angels?

Maybe Hell gets perks otherwhere, but since this is supposed to be the most important thing for both sides (they need souls, just like Tad), that doesn't sound like a good deal either way. Of course the judges do seem to be reasonably fair - enough so to scare their fellow angels - but they might still be expected to favour Heaven ever so slightly.

I am not very versed in theology, which may the issue here.


And a short comment on the first person viewpoint. I think Tad always wanted to experiment with different ways of telling a story, illustrated by his different language styles in previous books and especially by the online version of Shadowmarch, which was in third person view, but present tense (and felt very weird for a couple chapters, and I think that was both Tad and me needing some time to adjust). This was just the first book he thought he could make it work without losing mass market appeal.


May the birds who shelter in your branches never poop on the innocent. -Tad

 

#52 2013-09-03 02:06:44

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

And YaY you did Peter! And with valuable points.

The only explanation I can offer for the only "angels are judges" problem ist that the system was probably established even before or at the time of the Tartarean (spelling?) Convention. You have to look back at how Hell came into being: Lucifer the Lightbringer, highest Angel of all quarreled with God over I hve forgotten what and was cast down for punishment for defying God and made Lord of the place of punishment for human souls who do the same aka Hell. So Heaven's boss God is the mightiest player around and he decieds how and who judges souls because he created everything.

Does that make sense?


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#53 2013-09-03 02:52:47

Peter
Pilgrim
From: Austria
Registered: 2001-08-23
Posts: 39207
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Having the judges in place from before does kinda make sense, though it begs the question what happened to souls who didn't pass before there was a hell? Stay in purgatory forever? Did that even exist before there was a hell?

And if the Highest really had that much power, does that mean he condones hell?

I am really out of my depth here. Didn't pay enough attention in Sunday School.


May the birds who shelter in your branches never poop on the innocent. -Tad

 

#54 2013-09-03 11:01:32

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32660
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

It's lovely to see this reread resurrected. Can you keep notes for the later chapters and post them when the rest of us get our acts together and continue with it? We're still stuck somewhere in the middle, and this seems like the perfect time to start up again and go right on to Happy Hour.


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#55 2013-09-03 13:49:05

Peter
Pilgrim
From: Austria
Registered: 2001-08-23
Posts: 39207
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Is there a reread in progress? If so, where is it stuck at?


May the birds who shelter in your branches never poop on the innocent. -Tad

 

#56 2013-09-03 14:02:30

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32660
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Well, the one you're posting to now. And it's been stuck at chapter 22/23 since July.
I blame Smarchers for keeping me too busy.


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#57 2013-09-03 14:21:37

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

I blame ... life.
I have notes for the whole book and will be back as soon as somebody else is ... hopefully.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#58 2013-09-03 16:03:33

Ad1tu
Pilgrim
From: Buffysadharc
Registered: 2004-02-22
Posts: 6334

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Peter wrote:

Having the judges in place from before does kinda make sense, though it begs the question what happened to souls who didn't pass before there was a hell? Stay in purgatory forever? Did that even exist before there was a hell?

And if the Highest really had that much power, does that mean he condones hell?

I am really out of my depth here. Didn't pay enough attention in Sunday School.

I am glad you brought these questions up--several of them have been hanging in the back of my mind since my re-read of DSoH a couple weeks ago.

While this doesn't try to be a direct translation of any branch of Christianity, and Bobby specifically mentions that even he doesn't know which religion was right, it does make you wonder: what is the history of Heaven and Hell (and purgatory) in the Bobby-verse? Was there even a need for judges before the creation of Hell? And why did Hell allow for the creation of Purgatory, a place where souls can be redeemed and sent on to Heaven, but no place where souls can uhh sin and be sent to Hell? (I could go on with related questions, but I'll pause here.)

And how do you really know the judges are as impartial as they should be? Obviously there is disention in the ranks of Heaven. Plus, Bobby mentions that some judges are more old school than others, so there's some wiggle room in the interpretation of the, er, laws?


If you should do what makes you happy, and no one can tell you what makes you happy, then that means no one can tell you what to do!

Tamishu's Ramblings

 

#59 2013-09-03 19:20:49

Tad
Hierarch
From: California
Registered: 2001-05-30
Posts: 7612
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

It's a Free Will universe.  Without differences, there is no free will.


"I'll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours."

-- Dylan

 

#60 2013-09-03 19:34:26

Tad
Hierarch
From: California
Registered: 2001-05-30
Posts: 7612
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Oh, the readers WILL learn a few interesting twists about Heaven in the third volume, though.  And where (some) angels come from.


"I'll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours."

-- Dylan

 

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