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Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- 'God damn it, you've got to be kind.'
-    Kurt Vonnegut, 1922-2007

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#1 2012-09-30 06:23:18

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13269

The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

This week it's discussion time for chapters four and five.

And remember:

PLEASE POST NO SPOILERS beyond the current point of discussion.
If you absolutely have to refer to future plot points for the sake of an argumeent make sure you put in a decent spoiler warning ahead of it. Readers might be following this as they read the book for the first time ... so please be careful what you post!

This week I comepletely missed the title quotes.

Chapter four the bloody net I did not read the pages in question. The Grasswax crime scene literally gave me nightmares when I read it first and I cannnot bring myself to read it again. I dunno which cord this struck and why I react so extremly but I do. So  I have no idea where the quote is taken from.

Chapter five  pig man has the word pig and man quite often but I did not see the exact thing...

Family calling, sorry, later ...

*is out*


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#2 2012-09-30 10:53:52

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23103
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

ylvs wrote:

This week it's discussion time for chapters four and five.

And remember:

PLEASE POST NO SPOILERS beyond the current point of discussion.
If you absolutely have to refer to future plot points for the sake of an argumeent make sure you put in a decent spoiler warning ahead of it. Readers might be following this as they read the book for the first time ... so please be careful what you post!

This week I comepletely missed the title quotes.

Chapter four the bloody net I did not read the pages in question. The Grasswax crime scene literally gave me nightmares when I read it first and I cannnot bring myself to read it again. I dunno which cord this struck and why I react so extremly but I do. So  I have no idea where the quote is taken from.

Chapter five  pig man has the word pig and man quite often but I did not see the exact thing...

Family calling, sorry, later ...

*is out*

"The bloody net" appears on page 46, and it describes the Grasswax crime scene. I looked for the "pig man" reference in Chapter 5, but I couldn't find it.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#3 2012-09-30 13:31:57

Nefermiw
Pilgrim
From: Lund, Sweden
Registered: 2010-11-28
Posts: 141

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

Erm... pig man... must obviously be because Bobby is meeting with a guy that is a man cursed to live like a pig during the day and as a pig trapped as a man during the night. Quite a weird concept and I was not amused about the talk of pig-sex at the end of the chapter. Seams like Bobby wants to meet the countess and I am guessing that what he was doing in the prologue. I will just have to wait and see if I am right or not.

I too was not thrilled about the description of Grasswax's murdered remains. I did not actually get nightmares, but I was thinking that I might at the moment of reading that part of the chapter.

I am still waiting to feel connected to the book. The underlying who-done-it story of it appeals to me, but I just don't like Bobby yet and will probably have to read on for a while before he "befriends" me.

Last edited by Nefermiw (2012-10-01 00:25:27)

 

#4 2012-09-30 22:23:55

Pretzalz
Pilgrim
From: USA
Registered: 2001-06-02
Posts: 2256

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

Fatback felt a little gimmicky, but it did point to a richer world.  The opposition is doing more than just trying to win souls.  If there is never another scene with him as a human with a pig brain or bestiality references I'll be happy.  Trying a little too hard to be funny.  I'll admit the bestiality allusion sort of worked, but the other bit fell a little flat.

Something really isn't right with Clarence.  Still not sure who exactly it is he is working for.  Also not clear what exactly was to be gained by steering the case to Bobby.  Has he shown some sort of promise and is being pushed in a certain direction?


Jane: Ohh, you are trying to deal with your loneliness by surrounding yourself with friends, hmm, how's that going to work?

 

#5 2012-10-01 12:25:04

Nefermiw
Pilgrim
From: Lund, Sweden
Registered: 2010-11-28
Posts: 141

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

Nefermiw wrote:

... I did not actually get nightmares, but I was thinking that I might at the moment of reading that part of the chapter. ...

Ha, that will teach me not to post about not having nightmares right before going to sleep. I ended up dreaming about being in a big house with a group of strangers and the knowledge that a murderer was amongst us. Luckily it was a really scary dream but more of an unsettling one where I tried to figure out how to get out of the house without being murdered. Nothing like the horror of Grasswax's death.

 

#6 2012-10-02 05:44:52

Neemo
Pilgrim
From: Hamilton, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-03-28
Posts: 921
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

yea grasswax murder scene was pretty guesome...i winder if his soul is gone, gone or if he will be recycled into a new body

i found his drinking binge interesting, listening to robert johnson, for those who dont know he was a black blues guitar player in the 1930's who is rumored to have sold his soul to the devil to get amazing guitar abilities...he later was poisoned by a man whose wife he had rumored to have slept with...at age 27 (yes another infamous member of the "27 club") i havent read the book yet so i dunno if its foreshadowing or not

in chapter 5 the plot thickens agains clarence...can he manipulate the zippers or is it a coincidence? knowing tad we will find out later haha, bobby is gonna take him on for a day while sam snoops...i smell sam possibly being murdered

the fatback thing was kinda funny...reversed the curse...that sucks lol...poor old boby is gonna go looking for trouble, and i'm sure he will find it, why is he after the countess? he must figure she had a role in grasswax's death, but why does bobby care? cuz he is in the middle?

also bobby seems to have a bit of an affinity for the opposition prosecuters

Last edited by Neemo (2012-10-02 13:45:51)

 

#7 2012-10-02 06:30:01

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13269

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

Neemo, I did not know Robert Johnson, so that was interesting information.
What do you mean by "the plot thickens against Clarence"? That he is responsible for Sam not taking the case? Please elaborate!


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#8 2012-10-02 11:05:47

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32649
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

I'm finally learning to keep a piece of paper in my book to take notes, so I don't have to go through the chapters again to remember what I was going to say (of course, then I always forget to bring a pen...)

Notes for chapter 4:

Bobby wonders, as I did, who did call in the investigators before he or Grasswax notified anyone. Does this ever get answered? I can't remember.

If different people go Outside in the same place, but at different times, does the Outside look different to each of them? If living people "freeze" the moment you go through the zipper, shouldn't they appear frozen in different places and positions to people who went Outside at different times? (I know, doesn't really have anything to do with the plot, just a random thought I had. I think I'm much better at random thoughts than at useful discoveries.)

What I found kind of amusing was that Ch 4 starts on page 44 - I love coincidences like that.

Notes for chapter 5:

Parking in a handicapped space? That's not cheating, Bobby, this is just plain being an a**hole. I know, I never thought about either until my brother ended up in a wheelchair, but seriously - if I see someone using a handicapped space without being allowed to, it makes me wish they end up in a wheelchair themselves.

Fatback... hm. The reversed-curse thing was kind of amusing, but I couldn't bring myself to care much for him. Reminds me a little of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, where all the characters that are meant to be amusing (Lockheart, Myrtle, Colin) are walking the line between leaving me cold and getting on my nerves.

And one more completely random thought (told you I'm good at them), the bit right at the end, with Bobby keeping the windows open to get rid of the pig smell reminded me of something I was told this summer, just a couple of days after I read Dirty Streets for the first time. When I was visiting Libra, we went to the Wolf Trust where she volunteers, and while I was there, someone told me about one time he had to go home smelling of rotting meat (I can't quite remember how that happened), with his windows open of course (which immediately reminded me of this chapter), and he said as long as he was driving, it was OK - but having to stop at a traffic light was terrible!


Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

ylvs wrote:

Chapter four the bloody net I did not read the pages in question. The Grasswax crime scene literally gave me nightmares when I read it first and I cannnot bring myself to read it again. I dunno which cord this struck and why I react so extremly but I do. So  I have no idea where the quote is taken from.

Chapter five  pig man has the word pig and man quite often but I did not see the exact thing...

Family calling, sorry, later ...

*is out*

"The bloody net" appears on page 46, and it describes the Grasswax crime scene. I looked for the "pig man" reference in Chapter 5, but I couldn't find it.

That description didn't bother me at all. I will faint at the sight of blood, often even the tiniest bit, but reading about it is no problem.

And it's not just a description, the Bloody Net is actually the name of the procedure with which Grasswax was tortured/killed.
Couldn't find "pig man", either, but I'm pretty sure it's used at least once later on in the book.


Neemo wrote:

yea grasswax murder scene was pretty guesome...i winder if his soul is gone, gone or if he will be recycled into a new body

As I understand it, if you're killed Outside, there's nothing left to be recycled into a new body. Otherwise, what would be the big deal? I mean, apart from the fact that it was unimaginably painful?
And if his soul still existed, there wouldn't be much need to investigate the murder - you could just question Grasswax's own soul when it turned up wherever the souls of dead demons go.

And as ylvs said, that bit about Robert Johnson is interesting! Thanks!


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#9 2012-10-02 12:17:26

Neemo
Pilgrim
From: Hamilton, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-03-28
Posts: 921
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

ylvs wrote:

Neemo, I did not know Robert Johnson, so that was interesting information.
What do you mean by "the plot thickens against Clarence"? That he is responsible for Sam not taking the case? Please elaborate!

Well Sam insinuated that Clarence might have had something to do with him being locked in the zipper. Clarence asked him to show him the zipper....so I read it as Sam went through the zipper and couldn't get out...the zipper that Clarence asked him to make conveniently malfunctioned just as a call came from heaven about the suicide....made me suspect that the new guy can manipulate the zippers

 

#10 2012-10-02 19:07:27

cyan
Mantis
From: Magic Loft of Design & Wonder
Registered: 2005-02-16
Posts: 26870

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

Neemo wrote:

... robert johnson, for those who dont know he was a black blues guitar player in the 1930's who is rumored to have sold his soul to the devil to get amazing guitar abilities...

Aha!  You see, I felt that Fatback's story was there as a cautionary tale, like 'be careful what you wish for because you might get it.'  Or, you know, don't make deals with the devil...

Thanks for that info, Neemo!


"Never underestimate the power and accuracy of a chicken-chucking trebuchet." ~ Tad

Scrollbearer
Proud Member of the Log Brigade

 

#11 2013-07-17 21:40:03

Keni
Pilgrim
Registered: 2013-07-17
Posts: 1

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

I got the giggles when Fatback's  web password was "Radiant"
A scene less like Charlotte's Web would be hard to find.

 

#12 2013-07-17 23:12:55

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32649
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

Welcome, Keni!

Can you elaborate? I'm not very familiar with Charlotte's Web, and maybe I'm also missing something because I didn't read it in English.


Speaking of, at the second reading in Stuttgart, Tad read from chapter 5, and pointed out something that might be obvious to native speakers, but wasn't to me, namely that fatback is a cut of meat.

And that reminds me, I must pay the long-abandoned Otherland reread a visit, too.


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#13 2013-07-20 17:03:04

cyan
Mantis
From: Magic Loft of Design & Wonder
Registered: 2005-02-16
Posts: 26870

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

Keni, welcome!  And an excellent observation!  It took me a while to scroll up my memories of 'Charlotte's Web' and make the connection that you did.  I see it now, and will make a point of asking Tad about it the next chance I get (which I hope will be fairly soon).

But!  Was 'Radiant' actually in the book, or only in the Hanna-Barbera animated production?  That's the distinction that I don't remember, it's been so long ago.


"Never underestimate the power and accuracy of a chicken-chucking trebuchet." ~ Tad

Scrollbearer
Proud Member of the Log Brigade

 

#14 2013-07-24 01:20:13

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23103
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

I agree. Great observation, Keni!

(Yes, it was in the book; I just looked it up: "Charlotte had written the word RADIANT, and Wilbur really looked radiant as he stood in the golden sunlight.")


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#15 2013-09-03 09:03:37

Peter
Pilgrim
From: Austria
Registered: 2001-08-23
Posts: 39185
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 3, chapters 4 & 5 *SPOILERS*

Only thing I have to add to the discussion here, is that "Tijuana style tuck and roll body shop" is one of the hardest descriptions in the book to decode. From what I could google there are lots of cheap shops that do body work on cars in Tijuana, Mexico.

I am pretty sure there's more of a meaning (and reputation) behind it, but that's too much for foreign old me.


May the birds who shelter in your branches never poop on the innocent. -Tad

 

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