- Jendaiya
- Pilgrim
- From: Canada
- Registered: 2001-06-01
- Posts: 21821
- Website
North American Integration
This is my pet battle, but I will do my very best to keep an open mind and to keep from turning into a rabid screaming freak. ;)
To start:
Ren wrote:And the idea of Integrating Canada/Us/Mexico? I'd LOVE to see this become an active topic of discussion in the current ongoing debates, and I'd love to see it happen, though I know it would be horribly painful in the short term and not sure what the long-term benefits would be. I also don't think it should stop there...why leave out the rest of the world? 1 World, 1 People, 1 Economy, 1 set of Laws...etc... Yes I know, pipe dreams, but dammit its a good one...at least In MY opinion...
I'm going to call you on this. I'm hoping you were joking. :)
One set of laws? Really? Whose? One economy? Benefiting whom? One people? How? Humans can't even decide if gay people should be killed or allowed to marry, if women are second class citizens or equals and if visible minorities deserve to be considered people or not.
But one world, yes, that's obvious.
The road to North American Integration, or the North American Community as it is often called in the US, the word 'community' being used to add some fuzzy warmth to an incredibly unfuzzy plan, is well under way. Bush will give you a patronising smile and call you a 'conspiracy theorist' effectivley ending any debate because theorists are nuts, hands down. This has, however, been fairly well documented and publicised in Mexico. Harper pretends he didn't hear the question when asked.
Now, to give you proof, I'll back myself up with links and quotes from credible sources.
In 2005 the leaders of the US, Canada and Mexico got together behind closed doors to shake hands on the Security and Prosperity Partnership. The goal of the SPP is to speed up the corporate continental goal of economic integration by linking it with US security demands. Of course it is really only one step in a corporate plan that started back with NAFTA and has been slowly being stepped up ever since.
Who are the people that drive and plan this initiative? Well, it's run by an all-CEO group. All decisions affecting the SPP will be dealt with in this manner: 'meetings' for business, 'consultaions' for stakeholders and 'briefings' for government. Is that they way it should work? The CEOs of big business--like Wal-Mart--deciding whether or not your country should implement one law or another--because that's how the SPP works. The SPP tells governments how to best serve their interests. What happened to such scuzzy things as lobbying? Quaint. Not useful. This bypasses that altogether. It ignores workers groups and unions, civil groups and like I said, the people who you vote into office to make the decisions for you.
This is not going to be debated. This is a done deal. It's being implemented.
The players:
A) NACC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Amer … ss_Council
"Composed of 30 corporate representatives from some of North America's largest companies, the North American Competitiveness Council has been mandated to set priorities for the SPP and to act as a stable driver of the integration process through changes in government in all three countries." (emphasis mine)
"Ron Covais of Lockheed Martin told Savage that, "The guidance from the ministers was, 'tell us what we need to do and we'll make it happen,'" and that rather than going through the legislative process in any country, the Security and Prosperity Partnership must be implemented in incremental changes by executive agencies, bureaucrats and regulators. "We've decided not to recommend any things that would require legislative changes...""
"Despite a lack of in-depth information about the NACC, opposition to it in both the U.S. and Canada has focused on the fact that it grants the corporate sector a formal role in the Security and Prosperity Partnership which has thus far been denied to the public, citizens organizations, labour and many legislators, who are still in the dark about the continental pact." (emphasis mine)
B) The Council on Foreign Relations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on … _Relations and http://www.cfr.org/publication/8102/
They headed up the group that came up with "Building a North American Community", which takes things several steps beyond the SPP while at the same time being very supportive of the SPP.
C) The CCCE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCCE
"Big Business lobbies like the CCCE drafted almost all of the SPP's 300 initiatives and they continue to be the only Canadian group with any input into the SPP." 4
Members of the CFR and the CCCE and NACC are often interchangable.
How is this bad?
It endorses bulk water exports from Canada, and our government won't be able to have any say in the issue, just big business. "Leaked documents from a project established to guide the Security and Prosperity Partnership clearly put water exports on the table. The North American Future 2025 project, an iniative of the U.S. Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) in collaboration with the Conference Board of Canada and the Centro do Investigacion y Decencia Economicas (CIDE), convened several meetings last spring, one of which discussed “water consumption, water transfers and artificial diversions of bulk water." " 2
For Mexico? "The energy implications that run through the SPP are diverse and massive...Also by 2010, to break up Mexico’s national oil company, Petro´leos de Me´xixo (PEMEX), with its natural gas division to become a new corporation to be called GASMEX. By 2008, to put out ‘a benchmark analysis that illustrates PEMEX’s operating and financial performance gaps.’ Wilson claimed these recommendations, among others, ‘are aimed at dismantling Mexico’s publicly owned and managed energy sector."1
And the US? Well, we've already signed a treaty, also left pretty much untouched by the media, mandating military sharing in civil emergencies. This is the part 'Security' avenue of the picture. First, define civil emergency. A forest fire? Doesn't the US have people to fight fires? Don't our countries already often share fire fighting forces during such emergencies? How about a hurricane? Well, you have FEMA, don't you? Do you really want the Canadian military showing up on your doorstep during such emergencies? Don't you already have Blackwater? Do you really need the military of another nation showing up on your doorstep as a mercenary force to help in civil emergencies? 3
It also mandates a sweeping increase in the migrant worker force in the US. What about Americans working American jobs? No? Don't need 'em. Mexicans are cheaper.
I just have to bring TILMA into this. The Trade, Investment and Labour Mobilty Agreement. Why? Well, this is how the SPP works, small incremental changes to government. In Canada the SPP faced the problem of the fact that the provinces dictate a lot of their own pilicies and the federal government couldn't implement the SPP changes without first changing our provinces. So, in steps TILMA. Its job is to grant corporations the ability to work, free from any impediments of law and regulation. It allows corporations to sue the province if that province institutes any policies, or already had policies in place that would harm profits. The language says that corporations can sue the government repeatedly for the same 'crime' at 5 mil a pop. Governments now have to change all the rules so that they are the "least restrictive as possible" to the function of corporations in their search for profit.
Do you want chemical companies suing your government repeatedly for refusing to allow them the "least restrictive as possible" avenues to function? So the government will have to change such things as emissions and dumping laws that might interfere with profit mongering or they risk getting sued perpetually until it is done.
This is the overall working ethic of the SPP. This is how they plan to go forth and make profit in the world they restructure in their image. TILMA is, incidentally, just a lite version of NAFTA's chapter 11, which gives the same benefit to corporations: the ability to sue the pants off a government for making their own rules in the best interest of the people and for allowing things like federally-run programs and organisations to compepte with for-profit organisations.
The SPP doesn't stop at trade. It's policies cover:
environmental protection security energy food and health standards foreign affairs military immigration
Not surprisingly, there is only one of Canada's six biggest political parties this isn't vehemently opposed to this, and that the the one party that is in power right now. The Canadian public, when they find out are equally opposed. The Mexican public tends towards horrified, though I can't confirm this, being unable to read spanish, so it must remain anecdotal. I've read that they've been able to follow this in the media, while it's been ignored in the US and Canadian press.
Tell me how you benefit by allowing corporations to set all the standards? Or how Canada and Mexico benefit by requiring that we integrate our security and military to that of the US? What happens when we disagree on an issue of foreign policy? Then, what? We're not with you so we're with the terrorists? Critics in Mexico have been fairly scathing in this issue, going to far as to state that it makes them an enemy of the US if they do not agree to follow US foreign policy because the SPP will mandate that we have no say in the matter.
Unfortunatly I haven't been able to find any good, above-the-board US-based websites that deal with this issue. I haven't tried very hard, because my fight requires that I work within Canada in hope of changing these policies. The few US sites I've found just looked cheap, tin-foil hatty and just sounded more like counterintelligence than intelligence. I have found articles in the US alternative media, however, most taking a dissenting viewpoint towards the SPP and NA Integration.
I don't think I need to mention how undemocratic this is, seeing it circumvents even our governments. Civil rights groups that I've come across that have brought it up are also radically opposed. There are large sections in the SPP dedicated to such things as no-fly lists, the NEXUS program, foreign policy, fingerprinting and biometrics, standardised ID, etc.
Okay. I'll let you guys chew on this for a bit.
Info:
http://canadians.org/integratethis/index.html
http://canadians.org/DI/documents/NAFTA_SPP_Foster.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_a … th_America
1 http://canadians.org/DI/documents/NAFTA_SPP_Foster.pdf
2 http://canadians.org/integratethis/wate … an-18.html
3 http://www.northcom.mil/News/2008/021408.html
4 "Behind Closed Doors," The Council of Canadians, August 2007
Beauty will save the world.
~Prince Myshkin,
The Idiot, by Dostoevsky
- mabinogi
- Pilgrim
- From: Canberra, Australia
- Registered: 2001-07-26
- Posts: 10086
- Website
Re: North American Integration
Ren wrote:And the idea of Integrating Canada/Us/Mexico? I'd LOVE to see this become an active topic of discussion in the current ongoing debates, and I'd love to see it happen, though I know it would be horribly painful in the short term and not sure what the long-term benefits would be. I also don't think it should stop there...why leave out the rest of the world? 1 World, 1 People, 1 Economy, 1 set of Laws...etc... Yes I know, pipe dreams, but dammit its a good one...at least In MY opinion...
I'm not sure of the context of this quote, and I'm not going to comment on the issue itself, but let me just point out these two things from it.
1. Would be painful in the short term 2. Not sure what the long term benefits would be.
So, it'd suck and might not actually provide any benefit, but we should definitely do it! I'm not sure that method of arguing a point is going to ever have much success :P
..and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.. My Musical Experimentations
- ceywren
- Pilgrim
- From: hole in the bottom of the sea
- Registered: 2004-02-28
- Posts: 18790
- Website
Re: North American Integration
that is....a really bad idea. *wishes her smite button were real*
"It's not that it's such a mystery This new-found malaise. It's just that this mystery Has taken your place."
-Gordon Downie, Mystery-
- Jendaiya
- Pilgrim
- From: Canada
- Registered: 2001-06-01
- Posts: 21821
- Website
Re: North American Integration
To really horrify us Canadians:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? … p;aid=8323
On the implications of the US deployment of its military in Canada, via Northcom.
Beauty will save the world.
~Prince Myshkin,
The Idiot, by Dostoevsky
- Ren
- Pilgrim
- From: Austin, Tx
- Registered: 2001-07-29
- Posts: 14965
Re: North American Integration
woo boy...lotsa stufff...thats some good info there Jen, thanks!...8) And no I'm not in the slightest bit offended just fyi....I may need to clarify my statement... I a have a dream...cliche I know but still, I have one...my dream is to some day see a truly united world, a world at peace where all share in the same quality of life and all contribute for their share of the pie. Note I did not say HOW it could be done and tend to agree that letting the corporations dictate such an arrangement is a horrifically bad idea. But that leaves us with getting the Legislature to think it's a good enough idea but to get involved the right way instead of tearing it apart and reassembling into some clunky overly-bureaucratic monster that ultimately fails. And I don't think we can't just leave it to the legislature, i think we'd have to involve the corporations on some level as well. I'm not expecting this to lead to everyone making the SAME income level across the board, but I would like to see a larger, less frustrated middle class with better voting control and a non-existent lower/poor class. Again pipe dream but I believe we CAN achieve some measure of this the question is HOW?
I'll be the first to admit I know very little about the social-economic-law-politics sphere other than what I see and that may be effected by the mass-media, which we can assume is always biased from one side or another but there are always kernel truths. Maybe I'm not the best person to be talking about this but I am saying what I feel based on what I've seen and had to deal with directly. The world as a whole is sick; politically, socially, economically, morally etc...yes there are "pockets" where things are better, but it's not the norm. And yes I know I'm generalizing awfully, please forgive me. People as an individual are generally fairly smart, but when gathering in crowds intellect seems to start taking second place to group instinct; 1 person yells and suddenly twenty people are yelling with him...even if they don't know why. That's why we blindly follow the lead of our elected officials. I think theres also an inherent laziness to humans that allows such decisions to go through unchecked (But seriously, have you tried to read legalese without a law Degree?...) but maybe thats just me being a lazy, generalizing American again...8P
What I'd like to see now is a discussion on HOW do we go about achieving a Fair and Balanced Global Society, Economy and system of Justice? I have a dream, I know that at least in part I'm not alone in thi sdream, but how do we make this happen?
"You know, if you ate more comfort food you'd probably kill less people" - Hurley, Lost
- ceywren
- Pilgrim
- From: hole in the bottom of the sea
- Registered: 2004-02-28
- Posts: 18790
- Website
Re: North American Integration
the idea of a single global society/culturey thing terrifies me. as jen said, whose culture? obviously we think our way is the better way, but everyone thinks like that. so whose culture is more right than whose?
not only that, but to apply that, you would have to completely ignore the fact of human nature entirely. it's like utopia. it simply isn't possible because it ignores on a fundamental level what it is we are as a species. and this isn't culture i'm talking about, i'm talking about nature, instinct, whatever. it exists. therefore utopia cannot.
or at least that's the way i see it.
and anyway, i like having a gazillion different cultures around the world. what would be the point of travel if everywhere you went would just be like being at home? and i like to travel, i really do. why? because of the new experiences, seeing the way people who are not me, who did not have my cultural experiences, live. i like that about the world. it would suck immeasurably if that were taken away.
"It's not that it's such a mystery This new-found malaise. It's just that this mystery Has taken your place."
-Gordon Downie, Mystery-
- Hiragana
- Pilgrim
- Registered: 2003-02-07
- Posts: 9121
Re: North American Integration
- Miiru
- Pilgrim
- From: Just a bit left of center.
- Registered: 2001-06-20
- Posts: 14675
- Website
Re: North American Integration
Ted Kennedy in a speedo is just another sign of the coming apocalypse. -wiked
- Ren
- Pilgrim
- From: Austin, Tx
- Registered: 2001-07-29
- Posts: 14965
Re: North American Integration
I don't believe I ever said anything about crushing cultural differences or removing freedom of thought etc...nor did I ever say I want to try and create the "perfect" society, it's not going to happen I know it, too much perfection leave no room for flex and growth. That road just leads to stagnation and corruption. I'm more concerned with changing the basic structure within which we live so we CAN continue with our freedoms of expression, and choice etc...a basis from which eveyone can live decently provided they work for it.
"You know, if you ate more comfort food you'd probably kill less people" - Hurley, Lost
- mabinogi
- Pilgrim
- From: Canberra, Australia
- Registered: 2001-07-26
- Posts: 10086
- Website
Re: North American Integration
Ren wrote:I don't believe I ever said anything about crushing cultural differences or removing freedom of thought etc...nor did I ever say I want to try and create the "perfect" society, it's not going to happen I know it, too much perfection leave no room for flex and growth. That road just leads to stagnation and corruption. I'm more concerned with changing the basic structure within which we live so we CAN continue with our freedoms of expression, and choice etc...a basis from which eveyone can live decently provided they work for it.
Then you're changing it the wrong way.
What's needed is less integration, and more cooperation and tolerance.
Last edited by mabinogi (2008-03-17 05:54:18)
..and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.. My Musical Experimentations
- ceywren
- Pilgrim
- From: hole in the bottom of the sea
- Registered: 2004-02-28
- Posts: 18790
- Website
Re: North American Integration
Ren wrote:I don't believe I ever said anything about crushing cultural differences or removing freedom of thought etc...nor did I ever say I want to try and create the "perfect" society, it's not going to happen I know it, too much perfection leave no room for flex and growth. That road just leads to stagnation and corruption. I'm more concerned with changing the basic structure within which we live so we CAN continue with our freedoms of expression, and choice etc...a basis from which eveyone can live decently provided they work for it.
sorry, i wasn't very clear. i didn't mean to say you were trying to create a utopia. i meant the idea was just as ignorant of human nature as utopia. have you read it by the way? it's full of all sorts of impossibilities. lovely ideas, so long as you happened to agree with the author. personally i thought it seemed some sort of hell, but hey, that's just me.
and i'm not entirely sure about your second paragraph. you want to synchronise the structure and laws and economy of the whole world, but not to have them all actually be the same society? i dunno...to have people accept the same laws they'd have to accept the same principles, and as i said, that's what makes the world what it is, that difference. and you still haven't answered by the way: whose laws and principles? yours? mine? because despite the fact that we live on the same continent in a relatively similarish society, it is obvious from this topic at least that they're miles and miles apart.
"It's not that it's such a mystery This new-found malaise. It's just that this mystery Has taken your place."
-Gordon Downie, Mystery-
- Jendaiya
- Pilgrim
- From: Canada
- Registered: 2001-06-01
- Posts: 21821
- Website
Re: North American Integration
For all the people in the US who may be concerned about the issue:
http://www.amerocurrency.com/
"This site is intended to make United States citizens aware of the advancement of the agenda to launch the nations of North America, including the U.S., into a continental union similar to the European Union."
I haven't had the time yet to really give this site a good look-over, picking at their sources and such but it's a start.
(On a lighter note, I read an amusing conspiratorial take on this issue that pegged the lag in the US ecomony to a conspiracy to get the US to accept the Amero. The idea was, destablise the economy so much that the citizens will demand the Amero, thereby avoiding any opposition to the North American Union, which can't occur without a common Euro-like currency. :) )
Beauty will save the world.
~Prince Myshkin,
The Idiot, by Dostoevsky
- cyan
- Mantis
- From: Oakland
- Registered: 2005-02-16
- Posts: 22778
Re: North American Integration
I would be an amazingly bad idea, for all countries involved. And I didn't even have to read through all of the extensive sources that Jendaiya kindly provided to know this. ;-)
"Reality is for those people who can't handle fantasy!" - Genisis X Proud Member of the Log BrigadePhotos of My Works
- Jendaiya
- Pilgrim
- From: Canada
- Registered: 2001-06-01
- Posts: 21821
- Website
Re: North American Integration
Bad? It's an axis of evil!
Huh. Who knew I'd find a place to use that one?
Beauty will save the world.
~Prince Myshkin,
The Idiot, by Dostoevsky
- cyan
- Mantis
- From: Oakland
- Registered: 2005-02-16
- Posts: 22778
Re: North American Integration
Jen, I didn't merely say 'bad' I said amazingly bad.
I don't want to sound like Malachy, okay?
"Reality is for those people who can't handle fantasy!" - Genisis X Proud Member of the Log BrigadePhotos of My Works
- Jendaiya
- Pilgrim
- From: Canada
- Registered: 2001-06-01
- Posts: 21821
- Website
Re: North American Integration
Amazingly bad? It's an axis of evil!
Better? ;)
My apologies for a misquote and my sarcastic statement. :)
Beauty will save the world.
~Prince Myshkin,
The Idiot, by Dostoevsky
- cyan
- Mantis
- From: Oakland
- Registered: 2005-02-16
- Posts: 22778
Re: North American Integration
No apology necessary! *huggles*
I hope you noted my sarcasm also?
"Reality is for those people who can't handle fantasy!" - Genisis X Proud Member of the Log BrigadePhotos of My Works
- Jendaiya
- Pilgrim
- From: Canada
- Registered: 2001-06-01
- Posts: 21821
- Website
Re: North American Integration
I did. Then I didn't. Then I did again. By then I was confused. :)
Beauty will save the world.
~Prince Myshkin,
The Idiot, by Dostoevsky
- cyan
- Mantis
- From: Oakland
- Registered: 2005-02-16
- Posts: 22778
Re: North American Integration
*hands over a steaming cup of Russian Caravan*
Perhaps this will help ;-)
"Reality is for those people who can't handle fantasy!" - Genisis X Proud Member of the Log BrigadePhotos of My Works
- Jendaiya
- Pilgrim
- From: Canada
- Registered: 2001-06-01
- Posts: 21821
- Website
Re: North American Integration
Oh, god, yes. Thank you. :)
Beauty will save the world.
~Prince Myshkin,
The Idiot, by Dostoevsky
- Malachy_Sunblade
- Pilgrim
- From: Michigan
- Registered: 2005-11-14
- Posts: 337
- Website
Re: North American Integration
Cyan: I don't want to sound like Malachy, okay?
There are worse things, Cyan, there really are. *grins* You could sound like Rev. Jerry Wright, or Rev. James Manning. Just remember those two speeches, and you'll be amazed at how diplomatic even I actually sound *chuckles*.
*eyeballs Jen's "conspiratorial take"* That's an incredibly clever idea, actually. It's incomplete, but it's got a great deal to recommend it as a baseline plan. *grins wickedly* That little bit of text may just have solved so many of the economic issues that I've been hearing about in the news... Add in the brief road trip to BC for the bears, and my world domination plot could well begin... That's so cool.
"A strong enough metaphor creates its own truth" M.W. Stover, The Blade of Tyshall.
- Jendaiya
- Pilgrim
- From: Canada
- Registered: 2001-06-01
- Posts: 21821
- Website
Re: North American Integration
The bears are sleepin' right now, my friend. You got a bit of time before they wake up, so you know, you can pick the right clothes, I can do my nails and *then* world domination begins.
I've spent most of the day and night bringing an old friend up to speed on this SPP issue. He was so freaked out he was shaking by the time I was finished. Poor guy. I lack mercy. (Common knowledge, that. *g*)
What I want to know is how we The People can put a stop to this derailing of our nations to corporate interest. Not 'if'. HOW.
I'm doing my very best to work it out, but I can't quite figure out a killswitch proposal that'll fix it all. Aside from buying nukes on eBay.
Informing people is a good start but most people don't have the ability to do anything about it. I'm coming up on this time in my life where I have a lot of free space to define what I want to do (if I can just figure out what and how to afford it), so becoming radically politically active is a viable move for me.
Beauty will save the world.
~Prince Myshkin,
The Idiot, by Dostoevsky
- bumadax
- Pilgrim
- Registered: 2001-06-11
- Posts: 9734
- Website
Re: North American Integration
Can't be good. The people don't want it. That's why the people aren't being informed openly.
Last edited by bumadax (2008-03-27 23:15:40)
smile at people
- bumadax
- Pilgrim
- Registered: 2001-06-11
- Posts: 9734
- Website
Re: North American Integration
dunno why this didn't come up, but
how do the europeans feel about the EU?
Last edited by bumadax (2008-06-11 13:46:52)
smile at people
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