*admires the view*

ylvs wrote:

Wacht auf, verdammte dieser Erde, die stets man noch zum Hungern zwingt!
Das Recht wie Glut im Kraterherde nun mit Macht zum Durchbruch dringt.
Reinen Tisch macht mit dem Bedränger! Heer der Sklaven, wache auf!
Ein Nichts zu sein, tragt es nicht länger, alles zu werden, störmt zuhauf.

Völker, hört die Signale! Auf, zum letzten Gefecht!
Die Internationale erkämpft das Menschenrecht!

This should do to fill the spoilergap.

As long as you aren't talking about me, it's ok....lol what did this say anyway?

ylvs wrote:

It is labour day so I take up the labour to finally start this thread :-)

It's not labour day here for another 4 months :( Hmmm....spring really put a damper on this re-read huh? I was gonna suggest a re-read of otherland after this but maybe it's not a good idea just yet...after this is done we're gonna need a break i think. what does everyone else think?

ylvs wrote:

Simon hears voices and has visions again once there is even something weirder happening: the brief contact with a long dead Sitha woman.
When he longs to become part of his visions in order not to starve and be thirsty anymore this Sitha touches his thoughts and tells him to go back, cause this was not for him.
Were these mad Simon's dreams or was there a real contact to a long dead being? I think the latter ... which would then also be proof of the boundaries of time already becoming weak...

I think the latter as well...as The storm-king gets nearer to "returning" his visions become more tangible

ylvs wrote:

Then just before Simon reaches the bottom of the Tan'ja stairs and the pool of Three Depths (which is not as dry as Kuroyi suggests) he has those visions of old PJ, the young one on his way to meet the dragon, the old king with sword and book on his lap and the last image of the "tall figure, hidden in shadow, who stood straight backed in the middle of a strangely mobile floor"? What does this refer to? I cannot make sense of it, who can?

-Prester John
-His own Grand Father, Eahstan the Fisher King
-Hejeldin in the tower of the same name...now occcupied by Pryrates....

aren't they the last 3 kings of the Hayholt? ...maybe their Spirits are inter-twined with the Sithi's spirits???

ylvs wrote:

Simon "meets" the Stromking and is  - in a certain way - already given the means to finally conquer him.

Did this make sense to you? If not I'll try to explain more - just ask!

I ask....I didn't catch that at all....I was gonna talk about something else...when Simon saw Sorrow on the hilltop....did it "sing" the same way?

ylvs wrote:

She "feels sure that only Elias could send Ineluki away again and bar the door behind him."
Do you agree? I think Elias isn't much more than a puppet anymore, not having the power to change events even if he wanted. The brief scene with him and Hengfisk
(whom I thought dead btw.

I didn't think Hengfisk was dead....i just took everyones word for it....and No it's too late for Elias to change anything, just Miri's wishful thinking. But Elias is starting to become the stormking i think...he can sense all three swords drawing nearer...he is more in tune with his surroundings, like sitha would be...at least that's my veiw.

We come back to these underground scenes...i really struggle through them for some reason

ylvs wrote:

Wacht auf, verdammte dieser Erde, die stets man noch zum Hungern zwingt!
Das Recht wie Glut im Kraterherde nun mit Macht zum Durchbruch dringt.
Reinen Tisch macht mit dem Bedränger! Heer der Sklaven, wache auf!
Ein Nichts zu sein, tragt es nicht länger, alles zu werden, störmt zuhauf.

Völker, hört die Signale! Auf, zum letzten Gefecht!
Die Internationale erkämpft das Menschenrecht!

Lederhosen, bier stein, sauerkraut, und bretsel. And now I have nearly exhausted my entire German vocabulary. It always amazes me how similar German is to English: "Die Internationale" is perfectly understandable; followed by incomprehensible words like "erkämpft".

[b]
Simon gets lost again in the maze beneath the Hayholt/Swertcliff but this time he has a torch and even the luck to find an oil puddle to keep it burning.

How strange that an oil puddle was even there in the first place. Does The Hayholt sit above a rich source of petroleum?

[b]
He remembers his last journey in the dark "almost a year before" and although I lost track of the exact dates, I'm fairly sure that this was nine months ago. So I ask myself if 3/4 of a year do commonly count for 'almost a year' or if this is  time trickery again?

I would describe 9 months as almost a year. Heck, in the U.S., 32 weeks is a typical "school year". If 32 weeks can be considered a year, surely 36 weeks can be considered "almost a year"? ;)

[b]
Simon hears voices and has visions again once there is even something weirder happening: the brief contact with a long dead Sitha woman.
When he longs to become part of his visions in order not to starve and be thirsty anymore this Sitha touches his thoughts and tells him to go back, cause this was not for him.
Were these mad Simon's dreams or was there a real contact to a long dead being? I think the latter ... which would then also be proof of the boundaries of time already becoming weak...

Agreed. Weakening time boundaries seems to be the only explanation for this strange occurance.

[b]
Then just before Simon reaches the bottom of the Tan'ja stairs and the pool of Three Depths (which is not as dry as Kuroyi suggests) he has those visions of old PJ, the young one on his way to meet the dragon, the old king with sword and book on his lap and the last image of the "tall figure, hidden in shadow, who stood straight backed in the middle of a strangely mobile floor"? What does this refer to? I cannot make sense of it, who can?

Simon will soon meet Elias in Hjeldin's Tower, which has a movable floor. IMO, the shadowed figure is Elias himself.

[b]
Chapter 40 ends with a vision of a powerful shadowy figure over the pool.

Ages ago we discussed whether the antlered figure Simon meets at several occasions in DBC was Ineluki or just one of his minons. I always opted for the first possibility because of the antlers symbolzing a crown. Now I have another reason to think so.
We never learn anything about the feelings of the Red Hand where as the reasons for Ineluki becoming evil were mentioned several times: despair and sorrow for the deaths of his people and the lost beauty of Asu'a. These feelings are present here again. Simon "meets" the Stromking and is  - in a certain way - already given the means to finally conquer him.

Did this make sense to you? If not I'll try to explain more - just ask!

Makes perfect sense to me, Ylvs. :)

[b]
Beside the ventures of our beloved hero I want to comment on a few other things:

While Simon falls through PJ's grave Miriamele is musing abouth the possible ending of the war and whether the swords would be of any use. She "feels sure that only Elias could send Ineluki away again and bar the door behind him."
Do you agree?

No. I think from the moment Pryrates started adding things to Elias' drinks, soothing him with drugs and whispering suggestions in his ear, Elias took steps that could not be fully undone.

[b]I think Elias isn't much more than a puppet anymore, not having the power to change events even if he wanted. The brief scene with him and Hengfisk
(whom I thought dead btw. Wasn't he killed when Rachel hustled him down the stairs? Obviously not and I misunderstood that scene) at least supports that he is caught up in dreams and not very down to earth at this stage.

Hengfisk did not die, and Elias has certainly become a puppet, if he wasn't already a puppet at the opening of this series. I think such an argument can be made.

So Firsfron I did not quite get who you think are the three images Simon sees.
I think we all agree on the young with the spear being PJ.

You suggested Elias for the one in the shadow but did not comment on the old sword&book guy.

Please do so!

:-)

I said please!

So you're with Neemo that it is the Fisherking - I just wanted to make sure.

As to the solution of the trivia question - could we know that Cynethrith and Breda are buried on Swertclif from MS&T or from TBM?

spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers

ylvs wrote:

So you're with Neemo that it is the Fisherking - I just wanted to make sure.

Yes, I'm with Neemo on this... but why aren't you with us?

[b]
As to the solution of the trivia question - could we know that Cynethrith and Breda are buried on Swertclif from MS&T or from TBM?

From TBM, as we might see, if we discuss it after our story here ends.

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Ylvs wrote:

While Simon falls through PJ's grave Miriamele is musing abouth the possible ending of the war and whether the swords would be of any use. She "feels sure that only Elias could send Ineluki away again and bar the door behind him."
Do you agree? I think Elias isn't much more than a puppet anymore, not having the power to change events even if he wanted.

I agree, he’s pretty much a puppet at this point, though he does suggest he knows some things that even Pryrates doesn’t.  What I found more interesting was the beginning of the sentence you quoted: ‘Miriamele knew enough old stories to feel sure that only Elias…’  I thought this to be an odd and rather naïve way of thinking... are there not Osten Ard stories similar to our Pandora’s Box?  Or sayings about opening cans of worms?  Or even the unwritten law of unwanted guests (they’re nearly impossible to get rid of)?  Considering what she knows about the Storm King, I find it very strange that she still thinks that Elias could just tell him ‘go home, you’ve overstayed your welcome’ and he’d just leave.

Ylvs wrote:

(to be honest I still don't see the difference between the two, but hey I'm only a simple mortal :-))

Oh good, it’s not just me!

Ylvs wrote:

I wonder why the Sithi do not notice the possibility of coming back into existance by taking over the body of someone alive. Even the Sithi can miss what is self-evident - they are not almighty...

Hee!  It’s something that’s never happened before though, so they prolly don’t consider it possible.

Neemo wrote:

I was gonna suggest a re-read of otherland after this but maybe it's not a good idea just yet...after this is done we're gonna need a break i think. what does everyone else think?

I’d love to do a re-read of Otherland, though it looks rather daunting.  I will need a break first though.  Em & I were talking about doing a re-read of Wuthering Heights after MS&T.  Firsfron’s The Burning Man idea is good too, but I never did finish reading it when I was at Ylvs’ so it won’t exactly be a re-read for me.

Neemo wrote:

I didn't think Hengfisk was dead.... i just took everyones word for it....and No it's too late for Elias to change anything, just Miri's wishful thinking. But Elias is starting to become the stormking i think... he can sense all three swords drawing nearer...he is more in tune with his surroundings, like sitha would be...at least that's my view.

We thought Hengfisk was dead?  How did I miss that?  Interesting ideas about Elias, I see how that could be.

Ylvs wrote:

In the final battle Simon overcomes Ineluki not by means of strengths but of pity, he commiserates with his adversary despite of his evilness and ill meaning deeds. In the scene we're talking about Simon feels Ineluki's sorrow and despair. Without noticing this he would not feel pity for the Stormking - that is what I meant with "means to conquer" the knowledge about the Stormking's misery.

Ah!

Firsfron wrote:

Don't believe Ylvs when she says she wasn't talking about you, Neem. Trust me: my German is terrible, but I know enough to know she was saying something about "Neemo sucks. Purple monkey dishwasher." ;)

*LOL*

Firsfron wrote:

There is a second reason to believe the shadowed guy on the rotating floor in the vision is Elias: he grows antlers, just as Elias *spoilers* does near the end of our tale.
So: "PJ", "Fisherking", and "Hemlock", final answer.

Glad you guys figured it out, now I don’t have to work my poor brain.  But, why doesn’t Simon recognize Elias?

I quite liked the interaction between Eoliar and Isorn at the beginning of ch. 39.  ”My father and I are simple men.  We do not have the brains to worry like you and Josua.” 

:-D

cyan wrote:

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Glad you guys figured it out, now I don’t have to work my poor brain.  But, why doesn’t Simon recognize Elias?

I quite liked the interaction between Eoliar and Isorn at the beginning of ch. 39.  ”My father and I are simple men.  We do not have the brains to worry like you and Josua.” 

:-D

oh yeah...me too I loved that scene....but I totally forgot about it :D

Arrrrggh!!!! I knew Ylvs was talking about me in German....what's a purple monkey dishwasher?....lol

I think i read wuthering heights in highschool....hmmm but i know nothing now. burning man sounds like a cool idea....and maybe we could start otherland come late-summer to mid-fall or something. Another book I've always wanted to re-read was Cue For Treason....anyone know that? Or the Hobbit would be a cool one too. we could always do the Wheel of Time Series...lol j/k that would take a life time. How is Mr. Jordan doing BTW, anybody know? I hope he is alright.

[ May 01, 2006: Message edited by: Neemo ]

*LOL*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers

Originally posted by ylvs:
    So you're with Neemo that it is the Fisherking - I just wanted to make sure.

Yes, I'm with Neemo on this... but why aren't you with us?

[/b]

Misunderstanding again!

*shakes fist at god of foreign languages*


I originally thought it was PJ as well but do absolutely agree on the Fisherking now.

*nods vigorously in agreement*

Argh!  I'm missing out!  Currently in the middle of a gi-normous essay, so I'll try squeeze a reply in in a couple of days.

I was half right?  Do I get a half prize?  Can I say half of my acceptance speech?

*applauds with one hand*