Not fair, it's still Saturday afternoon here...

Olaf wrote:

Ok...now it is discussion time...

We'll start with the first three chapters of THE DRAGONBONE CHAIR this week.

Some observations from me:

(01) What do you make of Tad's "Author's Warning" at the very beginning of the book? In what way are we asked to "Avoid Assumptions"?

For me, the most obvious assumption Tad's talking about is the twist at the end, where we're led to believe gathering the swords will help the humans. I'm not certain what other assumptions he could be referring to, except perhaps the assumption that the trilogy would indeed be three books long. ;)

[b]
(02)I liked the way the foreword introduced not only Nisses as an important (if long  dead) character, but also Morgenes' book about King John, which becomes one of the most imortant artifacts in the book (as important as the three swords).

How many authors go to the trouble of writing a book-within-a-book inside their books? It says a lot about the depth of the story, and the faith Tad had in his readers to be able to make any sense of this first passage.

I admit when I first read this passage (age 14) I was quite confused as to what this passage was all about. But it enchanted me noetheless, and I couldn't stop reading. Yes, I remember the exact moment I read this part. It was November of 1988.

Anyway, the quotes of Du Svardenvyrd from within The Life and Reign of King John Presbyter, with their subtle hints... it was all really well done.

[b]
(03)I like the way in which Simon's ultimate destiny as future king is carefully hinted at already in the first three chapters. The title of the very first chapter, "The Grasshopper and the King", already links Simon to the king

This may have been foreshadowing, but it was really vague. I certainly never suspected Simon's heritage...

The New Introduction: Tad mentions he was influenced by Mervyn Peake, and I think this is most evident in the "tired, hobbled bird of prey shackled to the throne" (page 8), and his wizened, humorless jester. What an excellent way to begin a series.

I wish Tad would have mentioned more, in the new intro, of "The Sons of Presbyter John" outline, with Martin, Biliabil, Casamir, etc. I always wonder how far Tad got into the series before these characters changed names. Obviouly "Biliabil" stuck around for a while, but I wonder when Martin became Seoman, etc. And I often wonder why the change was made. "Binabik" was an editorial decision, but the rest?

The Author's Warning: Awww.. the very first typo in M, S, and T. And it's still in print after all these years. It's kinda cute, really. :)

And the best part: "Welcome stranger. The paths are treacherous today."

Chapter 1: The first glimpse of Simon, Rachel, Towser, and King John, and it couldn't have started more beautifully. Two really distinctive settings (a hedge garden and a throne room) bring a subtle layer of reality to the newly-created world.

This is also the first chapter to mention Morganes, Camaris, Usires Aedon, St Eahlstan, Elias, Josua and Ebekah, who all become important later in the story. Tad's setting quite a firm foundation for his tale. Also mentioned: Hepzibah and Sir Fluiren, but while they never become important characters, it really gives the story some interesting texture. The castle feels real because there are layers of characters, layers of storylines. Some of which are fleshed out quite realistically, and some of which we're only given a tantalizing glimpse.

(BTW, a female friend of mine really came to like Hepzibah because she wasn't some thin little waif...)


Chapter Two: Morgenes gets his first speaking role (outside of the Foreward), and he turns out to be quite the interesting fellow. Part wise physician, part mad scientist.

The only speaking role of Jakob the Chandler in the entire series. Inch is introduced. Who would have guessed the problems he would later cause?

One of my most favorite lines in the entire series: "We will have it back, manchild. We will have it all back." I still get shivers when I read that passage. It's a favorite of my friends, as well.

Jeremias, Shem, Duke Isgrimnur, Judith, and Father Dreosan get their first mention here.

Chapter Three: Flashback! One of the greatest tools of the writer. Whoever invented it should be knighted. The Susanna-Elispeth-Morgenes scene seems straight out of a movie, to me.

Also: the first mention of Eahlferend, St Elysia, Sarrah, Jael, St Rhiappa, the Master of Scullions, the sexton Barnabas, St Tunath, Pryrates, Miriamele, and St Pelippa. The multitude of saint names and references gives the distinct feel of medieval authenticity. Tad's building his world, here, as few other authors can.

i just finished reading chapter 3.  it really is like visiting old friends! i'm so enjoying going back to osten ard.

i related to simon's character right away. i know some people were turned off by his mooncalfish-ness, but i think i was quite a bit like that when i was his age. it's prolly easier for a girl to get away with being a daydreamer, but it still feels the same.  i loved simon from the first, and i still do.

i was also thinking how tad does seem to favor men of science and thinking vs. magic and mystery.  somehow it gives the story a bit more credibility for me.  morgenes is one of my favs, and i'm so sad he dies so early in the story.

one thing that stuck out for me is when tad is describing the contents of morgenes' rooms.  he takes great pains to describe the centerpiece of the table:

"The centerpiece of the table was a great brazen ball with tiny angled spouts protruding from its shiny skin.  It seemed to float in a dish of silvery liquid, the both of them balanced at the apex of a carved ivory tripod.  The spouts chuffed steam, and the brass globe slowly revolved."

at my first reading, i thought this was going to be an important item, and i made a point to remember it.  of course, morgenes's lab is destroyed, taking the curious item with it. i just wondered why it was described with so much detail, just to be destroyed. 

one other thing strikes me:  rachel's musings in the yard. it's nice to have a glimpse into her past, seeing her as a young and pretty girl in a world of dashing lords and beautiful ladies. it helps to soften her character, making the dragon a bit more human.  rachel was not one of my favs my first read through.  but i have come to love her.  perhaps because i am a parent now, and i can feel her pain caused by her worry about simon.  she loves him. i didn't see that the first time.

of course, it's a wonderful start to the series, as others have commented already.  the foreshadowing, the hints, the characters. i'm looking forward to reading this again.

very much.

cyan wrote:

@ Firsfron: Geez, you make me feel like I need to pay more attention to my reading :-

Heck, Cyan, y'all leave me behind in your dust. Gonna have to allow my hair to go blond, then the outside of my head will match the inside.

Originally posted by Olaf:
(01) What do you make of Tad's "Author's Warning" at the very beginning of the book? In what way are we asked to "Avoid Assumptions"?

I guess looking at it now and knowing how the story unfolds. the earliest and most apparent assumption to avoid is Morgenes. He dies soo early. When first reading this series I was quite shocked at his (untimely) death.

 

(02)I liked the way the foreword introduced not only Nisses as an important (if long  dead) character, but also Morgenes' book about King John, which becomes one of the most imortant artifacts in the book (as important as the three swords).

Probably more important because the book is how we learn about the three swords. I find it also interesting that the book about King John actually becomes the character of Morgenes

 

(03)I like the way in which Simon's ultimate destiny as future king is carefully hinted at already in the first three chapters. The title of the very first chapter, "The Grasshopper and the King", already links Simon to the king

That is a good point I never thought of it that way. What do you suppose that "grasshopper" refers to? Simon? Simon's beetle? Sithi? (The fair folk now vanished from the grassy plains?)

 

(04) Another oberservation that I think is important is the way the Hayholt is introduced in the first chapter. It is described less as a building and more like a character in the story. And later on we'll learn a lot more about the Hayholt.

It's pretty cool to to start and end in Asu'a. Caus during  the middle of the story it seems as though Simon will never be able to go back

 

Originally posted by Olaf:
Some observations from me:

I liked all the forboding:

-About Simon "he was no great lord's orphan son."
-About Pryrates, "A man with ... unhealthy interests"
-Inch's dangerous jealousy.
-The future war between Elias and Josua.
-"We will have it back, manchild. We will have it all back ..."
-Seoman means waiting (waiting for what? well we all know now :) )

One thing that was well done are the slight changes in every day things we are used to.
eg. extreme similarities between the Usirean Religion and the Catholic Religion; Names of months and the Holidays in Simon's world and our own; Nisses/Nostrodomus; It gives the world a very realistic and ageless feel (There are stories before "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn" and there will be stories after as well)

 

The Author's Warning: Awww.. the very first typo in M, S, and T. And it's still in print after all these years. It's kinda cute, really. :)

Where? Am I missing something?

edit: Oh, "Osten Are" should read Osten Ard


[ April 17, 2005: Message edited by: Neemo ]

cyan wrote:

@ Firsfron: Geez, you make me feel like I need to pay more attention to my reading :-

Oh, I dunno, Cyan. I thought your observations were just great. There's no reason for you to feel bad; I thought what you had to say, especially about the many parallels between Southmarch Castle and the Hayholt (and their respective denizens), were pretty dead-on accurate.

For this re-read, I've been taking notes about what I want to say. Not that anything I've said has been particularly profound, but at least it's semi-organized. And that way, (nearly) everything I wanted to mention actually gets typed out.

Originally posted by cyan:
I also find myself now (reluctantly, because I want the keep the stories separate) seeing the similarities between the Hayholt and Southmarch castle, Morgenes and Chaven, the dying King John and the missing King Olin, the (current representation of) Sithi and the Qar. What particularly strikes me is Tad's preference for a doctor/physician as opposed to a sorceror/magician. Seems like it's a leaning towards the idea that what we don't understand merely lacks knowledge & understanding as opposed giving it up to the inexplicable realm of magic. (But maybe that's a discussion for another thread.)

Originally posted by Firsfron of Ronchester:
I thought what you had to say, especially about the many parallels between Southmarch Castle and the Hayholt (and their respective denizens), were pretty dead-on accurate.

Ummmmmmmmm, could we please leave shadowmarch out of the discussions. I'm slow and haven't gotten the chance to read it yet. (I'm in the middle of War of the Flowers and Shadowmarch is on my shelf staring at me.) I'd really appreciate it, Thanks.

[ April 18, 2005: Message edited by: Neemo ]

Good points, Xeno. :)

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

For this re-read, I've been taking notes about what I want to say.

Ah, taking notes.  That's why I did so poorly in school...

cyan wrote:

Ah, taking notes.  That's why I did so poorly in school...

I never took notes in school, either. Note-taking in school is incredibly boring. Plus, I was always really bad at it. I'd get half the note written, and the teacher would be on to something different by then. My notes would be useful gems like: "The equasion of the quadratic formula is."

My only notes in school were the ones we passed around ... and got sent to the principal's office over.

cyan wrote:

Sorry Neemo, I'll try.... but it IS difficult...

Cool, I've been looking forward to reading it.  And since you imply it has many parallels to M,S&T I will probably love it.

I'm really diggin' WotF right now its a pretty cool story as well.

(Tad, if you read this, I'd just like to say that you write some fantastic books!!)