- bandit
- Pilgrim
- From: Palmerston North, NZ
- Registered: 2002-11-13
- Posts: 4034
- Website
The Art of Rhetoric
This is a place for people who wish to enter into a formal debate. Each debater agrees to follow the guidelines to the best of their abilities. All debates are self-regulatory (there is no moderator at this point). The guidelines are as follows:
INFORMATION -
To formulate your position, you will be employing either inductive or deductive arguments. Examples are as follows:
A deductive argument is an argument in which the conclusion is claimed or intended to follow from the premises.
Example: All humans are mortal. Socrates is human. Therefore, Socrates is mortal.
An inductive argument is an argument in which the conclusion is claimed or intended to follow probably from the premises.
Example: Polls show that 75% of Republicans favor a school prayer amendment. Joe is a Republican. Therefore, Joe probably favors a school prayer amendment.
Errors in your argument are called logical fallacies. The logical fallacies are as follows:The Logical Fallacies: Index The Fallacy Files
STRUCTURE -
The order of a formal debate is as follows:
a. First affirmative constructive argument.(1AC)
Establishes affirmatives advocacy of resolution.
May include the following - (There is a problem that could be solved - SIGNIFICANCE, HARM, ADVANTAGE
The status quo isn’t going to solve this problem without change - INHERENCY
Here is our specific proposal of what ought to be done - PLAN
Our plan will solve the problem/harm - SOLVENCY) b. Negative questioning of first affirmative constructive argument. (1AC)
Ask question to help you understand their arguments. GET INFORMATION
Ask questions to set up your arguments to come. USE ANSWERS AGAINST THEM LATER
c. First negative constructive argument. (1NC)
Attacks affirmative and begins laying out additional issues negative
May include the following - (Make arguments against the specifics of the affirmative case. CASE ARGUMENTS
Argue that if the plan is adopted bad things will happen. DISADVANTAGES
Argue that the fundamental assumptions of the affirmative are flawed/incorrect. CRITIQUE
Argue that the plan is not a representation of the topic. TOPICALITY
Argue that there would be a better alternative to the plan. COUNTERPLAN)
d. Affirmative questioning of first negative constructive argument. (1NC)
Ask question to help you understand their arguments. GET INFORMATION
Ask questions to set up your arguments to come. USE ANSWERS AGAINST THEM LATER
e. Second affirmative constructive argument.(2AC)
Defend affirmative positions, attack negative positions, last chance to introduce new issues for affirmative.
May include the following - (Argue that the disadvantages are really reasons to vote affirmative. TURNS
Argue that the counterplan and the affirmative plan can co-exist. PERMUTATIONS)
f. Negative questioning of second affirmative constructive argument. (2AC)
Ask question to help you understand their arguments. GET INFORMATION
Ask questions to set up your arguments to come. USE ANSWERS AGAINST THEM LATER
g. Second negative constructive argument. (2NC)
Attack affirmative positions, defend negative positions, last chance to introduce new issues for the negative.
h. Affirmative questioning of second negative construtive argument. (2NC)
Ask question to help you understand their arguments. GET INFORMATION
Ask questions to set up your arguments to come. USE ANSWERS AGAINST THEM LATER
These rules are to encourage structure and brevity.
For more explanation on the rules and terms consult: The Art of Speech Influencing Through Argument
OF NOTE -
Taking offence to a position is not an argument. Disliking a participant or their point of view is not an agrgument. Attacking a participant's character or morals is not an argument, and is STRICTLY VERBOTEN. Attacking the morality of an argument is permittable however. Personality should be as discreet as possible - arguments are based on facts and must be verifiable. Opinions and anecdotal evidence may be disregarded. Arguments may be altered with the inclusion of new evidence - however this must be noted by whomever is doing the altering. Only the structure of the above must be used - the terms may be used or not, depending on preference.
Noodle whippings will be furnished for those who cannot follow the guidelines.
Please feel free to ask for clarification on any of the above at any time.
Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf. Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples. - MST3K
- Sahi
- Mantis
- From: Assendelft (the Netherlands)
- Registered: 2001-06-04
- Posts: 37881
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
*sneaks in with a vase of roses*
Welcome to the neighbourhood!
yalahii.
"I'm a much nicer person online" - Aan'Allein
First member of the Shadowmarch Council of Sages, Official Quiller's Mint Historian You may call me the Porcupine Lady, or if you are feeling generous the Erinaceous One.
- bandit
- Pilgrim
- From: Palmerston North, NZ
- Registered: 2002-11-13
- Posts: 4034
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
It has begun! Mwahaha! ...now watch this space remain unused and fill with dust. /self-directed pessimism
Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf. Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples. - MST3K
- jaded
- Pilgrim
- Registered: 2001-08-19
- Posts: 10900
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
congrats on the place, bandit!
*drags in lovely, old wood lectern*
for you...:)
happy debating!
- Binky
- Pilgrim
- From: New Zealand
- Registered: 2001-06-13
- Posts: 4353
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
Nice place! Right...
Bandit is a debater Debaters are small furry animals THEREFORE Bandit is involved in a secret conspiracy to overthrow the dinosaurs.
*smugs* what flawless logic :-)
- Damon
- Pilgrim
- From: enzed
- Registered: 2001-05-31
- Posts: 10651
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
Nifty-skip! I'm no expert in the Rules of Rhetoric and Debate (two different things, I thought), but I shall try to formulate a proposition for debate regarding 'The Purpose of the UN', as that seems to be one of the major points at issue regarding the oncoming war. I intend to be arguing the pro-UN anti-unilateral position, albeit very simply (at least to begin with).
Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."
- bandit
- Pilgrim
- From: Palmerston North, NZ
- Registered: 2002-11-13
- Posts: 4034
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
They are different things. But the foundation of a lot of our rules for debating come from Aristotle's "The Art of Rhetoric"; so the terms are sometimes used interchangably (albeit incorrectly). Soon, with practice, we will all hopefully become master...debaters? Muahahaha! Muahaha! Muaha! Muaha. Haha. Ha. Um. *clears throat* Whew!
Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf. Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples. - MST3K
- rimmers
- Pilgrim
- From: vienna
- Registered: 2002-04-29
- Posts: 3251
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
hey Bandit, nice place you have here. of course it could be a little exhausting to have a formal debate on smarch.
(this reminds me of the formal logic lecture which i passed quite successful.)
Russell īs paradox, just for fun...
- bandit
- Pilgrim
- From: Palmerston North, NZ
- Registered: 2002-11-13
- Posts: 4034
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
Since this place is dead in the water - and since I agitated for it - I'm gonna do something else with it til somebody wants to put it to proper use. (*thinks* What's wrong with these people? It's almost like they don't like to argue. ;D) Now what to do, what to do. Since there's already a lectern in place, I think I'm gonna start posting unrelated (or maybe related) mini lectures about things that interest me (and hopefully other people). I don't know how frequently or what, but - open classroom style - please feel free to comment, add your own, or ignore entirely. Just don't smoke any weed in here, the last thing I want is a bunch of empty doritos and fritos bags littering up the place.
Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf. Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples. - MST3K
- bandit
- Pilgrim
- From: Palmerston North, NZ
- Registered: 2002-11-13
- Posts: 4034
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
Okay, I changed my mind. Know what I'm going to do instead? Crayon Raves. The opposite of Crayon Rants. Should have one up sometime today.
Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf. Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples. - MST3K
- Damon
- Pilgrim
- From: enzed
- Registered: 2001-05-31
- Posts: 10651
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
Cool. Are you going to change the title of the topic? (done by editing the first post)
If it's to be a rave, will there be live music and dancing?
Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."
- bandit
- Pilgrim
- From: Palmerston North, NZ
- Registered: 2002-11-13
- Posts: 4034
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
Crayon Rave #1: Silent Films
Ever get tired of the paltry, repetitive, and bourgeois dialogue used in most movies nowadays? The cure is here: movies with no talking. It's amazing to see how a good actor or actress can tell an entire story with movement and gesture and facial expressions (and the occasional expository placard). Lillian Gish can say more with her face in one take than most actors do now in an entire scene. Eloquent.
Silent films were primarily made between the early 1900s until roughly 1927 - the year the first talkie The Jazz Singer was released - at which point sadly many of the great silent films stars were unable to transition to the new style, and their careers subsequently faded. The subject matter in films of the silent era still seems as vital today in many cases as it did back then. One possible reason for this was the medium itself - without the luxury of dialogue, the narrative of film had to be simple and situations easily identifiable. There is also interestingly an element of improvisation in many films, as most of them had nothing like a script to work off of; but instead the actors and actresses were directed by the director (wait! Directed by the...director? "Inconceivable!") on how the scenes should play out - while they were filming. Another interesting advantage of dialogueless cinema is the ease with which it was imported and exported to other countries. No language means no interpreting, and the stories were universal enough to play anywhere with instant recognition.
It's also fun to see film at that early stage. You can literally watch the style evolve. For instance, an early film by DW Griffith Judith of Bethulia has the camera entirely stationary - the thought process for early films was that they should be blocked like plays, with the viewer allowed only one non-motile viewpoint. But then only four years later in Broken Blossoms it has been realized that the camera can be moved in many many different ways to accentuate whatever mood or information is attempting to be conveyed. The camera becomes almost its own entity and allows the viewer a bird's eye view of the unfolding story that would be impossible in almost any other medium. For more on the subject of early film cinematography, check out Some Notes on the Evolution of Style which is pretty thorough.
Recommended viewing - The works of the Lumiere Brothers Rescued By Rover Broken Blossoms Greed The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari Metropolis A Trip to the Moon The Wind Foolish Wives The General The Last Laugh City Lights The Kid A House Divided
Resources - Silent Era - the Silent Film Website Amazon Early Cinema
[ May 03, 2003: Message edited by: Bandit ]
Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf. Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples. - MST3K
- bandit
- Pilgrim
- From: Palmerston North, NZ
- Registered: 2002-11-13
- Posts: 4034
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
Nah, I'll leave it alone - the topic title I mean. I still think this place could serve a vital function, just as long as people are willing to use it.
There shall be lights and dancing! But um, only of the sedate and opinionated kind. Like, My strobe and running-man are better than your glowstick and grind!
Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf. Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples. - MST3K
- Damon
- Pilgrim
- From: enzed
- Registered: 2001-05-31
- Posts: 10651
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari
Next month, next month...
I've heard of Greed, too, and Metropolis and A Trip to the Moon, of course. But they're so hard to come by!
Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."
- bandit
- Pilgrim
- From: Palmerston North, NZ
- Registered: 2002-11-13
- Posts: 4034
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
You can get a bunch through amazon. Does NZ have it's own amazon, or do you guys have to go through AUs?
Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf. Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples. - MST3K
- Damon
- Pilgrim
- From: enzed
- Registered: 2001-05-31
- Posts: 10651
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
We had a local service (FlyingPig) but it didn't. Fly, that is.
Plus I don't believe there is an Amazon Australia.
Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."
- bandit
- Pilgrim
- From: Palmerston North, NZ
- Registered: 2002-11-13
- Posts: 4034
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
Okay my bad. I thought they did. Maybe it was B&N or Borders or something. Also, um, I don't suppose your thing got there yet? *squirms with impatience* Although I've built it up so much that now it'll definately suck. }:/
Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf. Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples. - MST3K
- bandit
- Pilgrim
- From: Palmerston North, NZ
- Registered: 2002-11-13
- Posts: 4034
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
JEEE-sus I had like 20 posts today. That's a lot for me.
Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf. Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples. - MST3K
- bandit
- Pilgrim
- From: Palmerston North, NZ
- Registered: 2002-11-13
- Posts: 4034
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf. Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples. - MST3K
- Sahi
- Mantis
- From: Assendelft (the Netherlands)
- Registered: 2001-06-04
- Posts: 37881
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
"I'm a much nicer person online" - Aan'Allein
First member of the Shadowmarch Council of Sages, Official Quiller's Mint Historian You may call me the Porcupine Lady, or if you are feeling generous the Erinaceous One.
- Venkelos
- Pilgrim
- From: In England but my heart is in
- Registered: 2001-06-10
- Posts: 14873
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
@la Bandida: Just a side question. Wasn`t a lot of the mood in silent pictures conveyed by a pianist playing live in the cinema (thus ensuring no two performances, esp. in different theatres) would ever be the same? They really ought to bring that back.. The musicians would appreciate the work I`m sure.
WILD MAGIC LADY FORUMSend a Cow"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw - "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 -
- The Sixth Viking
- Pilgrim
- Registered: 2001-06-24
- Posts: 2026
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
Welcome to the Neighborhood Bandit!
Do you sass that hoopy Ford Prefect? There's a frood who knows where his towel is ~ Douglas Adams - The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy.
- Damon
- Pilgrim
- From: enzed
- Registered: 2001-05-31
- Posts: 10651
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
Not actually a silent movie, but I just decided that I should remedy the fact that I've never watched a Kurosawa film and have borrowed the full-length Shichinin No Samurai from the Massey Library. Lots of bandits in there!
Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."
- Damon
- Pilgrim
- From: enzed
- Registered: 2001-05-31
- Posts: 10651
- Website
Re: The Art of Rhetoric
Shichinin No Samurai was great! So much so that I may just work to convince people to watch some more old movies. On the list currently (and available via the Massey library system):
Fellini's 8 1/2 de Sica's The Bicycle Thief Sturges' Sullivan's Travels Griffith's The Birth of a Nation (if only they had good copies of them I'd also include Metropolis, Greed, The Seventh Seal)
And of course all the other famous Kurosawa pics: The Hidden Fortress, Rashomon, Ran...
Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."
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