@Neemo: My suggestion for the biting is. Show her what she does! Meaning: Bite her back! When Medea was at that age she took delight in tearing at my hair and after several weeks losing whole strands of it and nothing working I got fed up and tore at hers, explaining very friendly "look, this is what it feels like when you do this." Of cause I didn't tear with all might just enough to let her feel that this is uncomfortable. I only had to do it twice and she never did it again.

I know this is very harsh but being understandful and only talking does not always work with our beloved younglings.

And eh? Life isn't fun ....

Harharhar!

@Firsfron: I'll try to find the scene that made me think Stormkings headquaters is the Speakfire.

Sleeping time for the girls will be within a few hours - be back then.

Neemo wrote:

Do you think it's possible that because of Simons proximity to the witness that his dreams are broadcast over the dream road? And maybe Simon is part sithi too? (his physique matches the description as well as his uncommon, firey red hair (I can't recall another redhead in the story) and aditu's comment)

The Sithi have white hair, not red. And although Simon has a lock of white hair, it was caused by the dragon's hot blood. When the citizens of New Gadrinsett gossip about Simon being part Sitha, I think it is because of his lock of white hair, and the stories that he is a "fairy-friend".

Aditu's jest concerns Simon's growing depth; he makes a poetic statement, and she considers it a Sithi-like sentiment.

I very much doubt that Simon is anything but human.

What if Lluth's line has Sithi blood too? it would explain the subseptablity to "walking the road of dreams" wouldn't it?

I think it's possible Lluth's line has Sithi blood. But maybe not much: Eolair is described as being thin and sitha-like, but Maegwin is chunky and ungraceful.

good points as always firsfron

Found it!

And thought to say:

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SOF p. 377:

"... and some few [Tinukeda'ya] lived in Hikehikayo [...] Until they were made to leave. [...] Our few remaining folk there fled leaving the evil behind."

and then p. 381:

"That which spoke was someone ore something we knew not, something that used the Speakfire [...] but we also remembered the evil that had driven our fellows from their home[...] Whatever stood before the Speakfire in the north seemed more like a cold breath of Unbeing than a living creature."

These are the passages from which I concluded that Hikehikayo was the lion's den and in rereading them now after being introduced to your plausible theory on the Lightless Ones Firsfron, I wonder whether what Yisfidri tells us here does not stand against it. He mentions twice that the Tinukedaya fled Hikehikayo. So if you were right (which I do not argue) the dwarrows beneath Stormspike must have some other origin (although I have no idea which that should be!)

As to the "every human being close to the Dreamroad has Sithi blood" hypothesis, I doubt that, too cause I cannot remember any hint to it. But the question remains. What do Simon, Leleth and Maegwin have in common, what makes them dream so much more than anybody else? Miriamele, Eolair and some others have these dreams as well but not nearly as often.

Neemo you did ask what a Wheel had to do with the Stormking.

Imho it is not only the real one we're about to see in the forges but as well and much more prominent a metaphor (and yes in this case it is a metaphore :-)) for passing time. And well - the rewinding of time is THE thing for Ineluki, isn't it?

ylvs wrote:

Found it!

And thought to say:

SPOILER SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERvSPOILERSPOILER

SOF p. 377:

"... and some few [Tinukeda'ya] lived in Hikehikayo [...] Until they were made to leave. [...] Our few remaining folk there fled leaving the evil behind."

and then p. 381:

"That which spoke was someone ore something we knew not, something that used the Speakfire [...] but we also remembered the evil that had driven our fellows from their home[...] Whatever stood before the Speakfire in the north seemed more like a cold breath of Unbeing than a living creature."

These are the passages from which I concluded that Hikehikayo was the lion's den and in rereading them now after being introduced to your plausible theory on the Lightless Ones Firsfron,

She called my theory plausible! :) My theory! Mine! </Tiamak>

[b] I wonder whether what Yisfidri tells us here does not stand against it. He mentions twice that the Tinukedaya fled Hikehikayo. So if you were right (which I do not argue) the dwarrows beneath Stormspike must have some other origin (although I have no idea which that should be!)

But does it not also say on page 377:

"[The dwarrows at Hikehikayo] have left those mountains behind. We hope that they have left the evil behind as well."

In other words, Yis-fidri does not know what has happened to the dwarrows at Hikehikayo. He does not say they went to Mezu'tua, and Yis-fidri and Yis-hadra only say that they hope they left the evil behind them. Their other comments indicate they lost all contact with those northern dwarrows.

Which indicates they disapeared. And so what stops the Lightless Ones at Nakkiga from being the dwarrows from Hikehikayo?

There is also the possibility that the Lightless Ones are other dwarrows. Somewhere in the text (don't ask me for the citation!), it says there were Tinukeda'ya living at Asu'a. They were too afraid to leave the Sithi, and they all perished when Asu'a fell. Is it not then possible that there were Tinukeda'ya who served the Norns who were too afraid to leave them as well?

A third possibility is that the Lightless Ones are merely Bukken. I do not truly believe this theory, but it is a long shot. We're told the Bukken live always deep underground, in caverns. Obviously from the events at Naglimund, they serve the Norns, or at least can be forced to do their bidding.

The main problem with this theory is that the Lightless Ones are creatures of song, while the Bukken are only mentioned to chitter.

[b]
But the question remains. What do Simon, Leleth and Maegwin have in common, what makes them dream so much more than anybody else? Miriamele, Eolair and some others have these dreams as well but not nearly as often.

I guess it is just like here in our world: some people dream more than others, or their dreams make a greater impression on them. I've a friend who can vividly remember details of many dreams.

Me? As soon as I wake up, I tend to forget everything in mere instants. I can remark to myself, "Wow, that was an amazing dream. I better write that down... before I... eh... forget... what it... was? What was it again?"

[b]
Neemo you did ask what a Wheel had to do with the Stormking.

Imho it is not only the real one we're about to see in the forges but as well and much more prominent a metaphor (and yes in this case it is a metaphore :-)) for passing time. And well - the rewinding of time is THE thing for Ineluki, isn't it?

Excellent.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

She called my theory plausible! :) My theory! Mine! </Tiamak>

*Lol*

  ]But does it not also say on page 377:
"[The dwarrows at Hikehikayo] have left those mountains behind. We hope that they have left the evil behind as well."

In other words, Yis-fidri does not know what has happened to the dwarrows at Hikehikayo. He does not say they went to Mezu'tua, and Yis-fidri and Yis-hadra only say that they hope they left the evil behind them. Their other comments indicate they lost all contact with those northern dwarrows.

Seems I stopped reading two lines too early!

*blushes in shame*

So yeah, I'm taking back what I said before and claim the opposite!

Hmmmmm.  Babies.  Not my forte, I'm afraid, so I shall avoid giving advice, because I don't think putting muzzles on children is socially acceptable in most civilized countries.  *grin* 

Re: humans and the Dream Road - I don't think you need to have Sithi blood.  Jiriki says somewhere that humans visit the Dream Road in sleep.  It's just that the Sithi have stronger abilities to consciously control access to the Dream Road.  As Geloe, Binibik and Simon did, you can also take certain herbs to facilitate access.  Some people do seem to more skilled at going there than other humans though, much like the way I'll never be a concert piano player.

I remember lots of my dreams.  I won $10,000 playing lotto in my dream last night.  It was quite disappointing to wake up and find it not true....

JustCharlotte wrote:

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The only thing that I can think of, is that if they are like the Japanese and have a shame culture, by suggesting a dishonourable course of action left Utuk'ku's group on the back foot, with no honourable way to justify their actions, but not being prepared to back down either. So they are left with less bargaining power.

I guess that makes sense. Still, it seems odd to me that Utuk'ku, who is so forceful, would back down like that in public, in front of everyone.

But your theory does seem to have some support: Aditu says at one point that Utuk'ku was "shamed".

[b]No, this isn't what I meant. When the Sithi die, as far as I can tell, it's final. Unless you're Ineluki.

Or one of the Red Hand.

But the Sithi have their own gods (Mezumiiru, Isiki, etc) so they may think they go to a Great Beyond, too. Furthermore, when Simon is down in the depths of Asu'a, he feels the place is haunted by the spirits of the slaughtered Sithi. So it appears they may not completely die, either.

[b]I confess I'm on really shaky ground here because it's been ages since I looked at Tolkien, but I have the dim memory that one of the fundamental differences between Tolkien's Elves and humans was what happens when each kind dies/or doesn't die as may be the case. Unfortunately my memory fails me and I only dimly recall that there was a difference, but not the specifics. I could however be totally wrong. Perhaps there are some Tolkien fans lurking who can shed light here.

It's been years since I read Tolkien, but I recall some things. The Elven heaven is Valinor, where the Maiar and Valar dwell.

[b]*shrug* Pick a cat. Any cat. Now try follow it. I bet you come across an instinctive dislike of being stalked regardless of how friendly the cat is. An important point here is that Guthwulf is blind (yeah, I know you haven't forgotten that). The cat has to *actively* lead him, bumping and weaving between his feet. He can't follow it any other way. Of course the cat will go to food, that's normal. But to lead a human? There's a reason why we don't have seeing-eye cats for the blind. Cats are too self-interested for that.

How about this cat? Says there, this cat leads a blind dog to food every day.

This site also mentions a seeing-eye cat. And this one as well. This site mentions a cat that would lead a human in darkness to his front door.
Heres' a blog that features a seeing-eye cat. And one here, too.


More on your posts later, but I've got to get ready for work...

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Neemo wrote:

the swords have almost become living things so it could be 'singing' to him, he just may feel the presence of it and unconciously knows his fate is to be reunited with the thing again.

That was kind of my theory. But I never explained it very well. The swords do seem to sing, and some people can feel it, just as there are those who can walk the Road of Dreams. Although they don't seem to be the same group of people. Hey! I just came up with another half-baked theory while typing that sentence!

[b]
Guthwulf is driven insane by the close proximity of 2 of the great swords, and their continual singing.

On this same topic. How come Simon isn't affected by thorn? or Sludig too? didn't handle it long enough? not really a valid point cuz Wulf merely touched sorrow and Minniyar started singing to him as well as Sorrow

odd situation IMO

Well, as I just realized above, a few people can hear the Swords singing. Most people can't. It seems to be a close parallel with those who can walk the Dream Road.

gah! jellybeans!

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cey wrote:

it seems a bit odd to me that guthwulf should somehow be more "in tune" than simon. but if you think about it, guthwulf is in the middle of asua where this weird timeshift is happening and the evil powers of doom are slowly materialising around him at every corner. not only that, but now he's blind, which probably works to make him even more in tune with his "other" senses. i can well see how the call of the swords should affect him so much.

I think hearing the swords, and seeing visions/dreaming, is kinda like people who can hear dog whistles, and people who can see Haidinger's Brush. Some people can hear dog whistles, but most people can't. Some people can see the brush, but most people can't. There are even a few people (one assumes) who can both see the brush and hear the whistle. But being able to perceive one doesn't necessarily mean one can perceive the other one.

In other words, you have people who are naturally gifted to perceive things, but those things may vary from person to person. And no one will have all perception gifts. And some might not have any at all.

[b]

simon on the other hand only had to carry it down a mountainside.

Well, he carried it down a mountainside, and it lay with him for weeks in an icy cave on Mintahoq. And then he carried across the frozen tundra of the White Waste.

But I don't think time is necessarily the factor that allows one to hear the sword sing, just as sleeping every night won't make someone a dreamer.

JustCharlotte wrote:

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Why would Thorn bother him? He had it for many years, seemly comfortably (other than killing in general which bothered him).

True, but if Camaris was trying to forget his old self (as it appears he was) wouldn't the familiar singing of an old "friend" give him pause? Then again, I suppose you're right: if he overheard the others talking about reaching Josua, maybe there was part of him that recognized that name.

 

[b]
Miriamele's group don't know Josua has Thorn, do they? I can't remember.

No they do not.

 

[b]However, Camaris knows Josua is going to be there, the son he's presumably never met and represents one of the actions that he's most ashamed of. After all it wasn't Thorn that made him jump into the sea all of those years ago.

Well, do we really know for sure what made him jump into the sea? Do we even know that he did jump into the sea? He certainly felt guilty, I don't deny that. But I don't think we're ever directly told he tried to end it all that way, other than people (characters) hypothesizing (sp?) that.

(Edited for clarity, spelling, and such)

[ March 02, 2006: Message edited by: Firsfron of Ronchester ]

woo hoo!!!! approaching 100 posts for the thread!!!

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Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Do we even know that he did jump into the sea?

Yes, a sea of forgetfulness. hehe

Come on Cyan!!! you can be the record setting post!Leave that other book and come back home where you belong :D