no! i don't want to hear it! *sob*

Right!  Sustenance consumed!

I too like the opening scene in chapter 22, not only because of the human/sithi contrast Firs mentions, but because despite all the growing up Simon has had to do, we still see him as an impatient young man who, like many young people, sometimes gets  stuck in the 'now', rather than looking at the bigger picture.  Contrast this thought of of Simon's,
"It seemed important that she see how much he had grown in the months since they had met.", compared with Aditu's
From what I saw of him, he needs some relief from woe and care." Simon is quite rude and impatient at this point, but Aditu quite rightly puts him in his place. 

Aditu says at one point (pg 420) that the Norns 'must not have any foothold south of Nakkiga'. Why? Simon's vision of the Fire Garden indicates the Norns and Sithi fought bitterly over the lands of Osten Ard. Why must the Norns remain stuck in the far north? Is this part of the reason they are embittered?

When you consider that at the time of the pact of Sesuad'ra, the Norns and Sithi were the dominant race and only tolerating the humans, the Norns got a really bad deal (and must have lost the debate big time) - a few snowy cold mountains, compared to lion's share the Sithi kept for their own.  I'd definitely be bitter about that - which could explain why the Norns seem to hate the Zida'ya so much more than the Zida'ya do in return.  Another point could be that the Zida'ya fear the influence of Utuk'ku - have any of you noticed how 2D the Norns are compared to the Sithi?  Consider the three Norn assassins -
the desires of their mistress had been poured into them like sour milk from a pitcher" - if all of the Norns are like this, totally under Utuk'ku's thumb, then they're all crazy brain-washed zombies and not independent creatures like the Sithi.  Utuk'ku could destroy all of that for the Sithi, if allowed too close.

Some interesting comments about what the Sithi think Utuk'ku and Ineluki are up to: Aditu says to Simon that she thinks Utuk'ku longs for unbeing and that she wants to take as many others with her as possible, *but*  she tells Josua that the Zida'ya think it likely that [Ineluki]

"can send his living minions, and they will help him rule over your brother and, throught him, mankind."

Rule over?  Why is this logical, especially since Aditu thinks Utuk'ku has an apocalyptic style death-wish and the two of them are working together. This stood out for me the first time I ever read the series.  Why not just say, dalek-style, EXTERMINATE!  Ineluki always seemed to me to be the oblivion kind of guy rather than power-hungry, yet the Sithi assume he wants to rule? 

As for the term "Unbeing", I always found this kind of confusing since the Sithi use it a lot.  I guess it's synonymous with extinction, but to me it seems to be used in a more profound way than this.  The Sithi use it when referring to the flight from Venyha Do'sae - so do they mean that at some stage in their past they tetered on a huge morally corupt abyss like some people say we humans teter on now, or something else more scary and final?  Aditu also says to Simon, that the Zida'ya "do not kill any creature if we can avoid doing so" yet comparatively recently (ie Sithi generations, not human), things were atrocious enough on their home planet (*grin* - my interpretation!) that they ran for it.  I sometimes think (8 ships came, so how many Sithi could fit on each ship?) that the Sithi/Norns who arrived on Osten Ard must have been like quakers or Amish or something like that - a small group escaping larger corruption, only to find that you can't really hide from yourself.  So when Aditu made the above comment to Simon, I think it kind of inconsistent, that the inner peace/innocence and tranquility they hoped to regain/develop by coming to Osten Ard, is perhaps at odds with the fact that they have a characteristic tendancy to hold long, bitter, destructive grudges (with each other as well as humans) as much as they want to achieve some sort of living nirvana (Ineluki was supposed to lead them back into the light of the living world).  By no means am I saying this is a mistake of Tad's though - I totally love such dichotomies, it brings a 3D sense to the story line.

Another imperfection of the Sithi: Jiriki says

"There are those among the Zida'ya, even to this day, who feel we should have kept Ruyan Ve's children as servants." One of the reasons I could never much love Tolkien's elves was that they were portrayed as way too perfect for my taste.  I so much more like the darkness that lingers inside of the Sithi.

One more final thing about the Norns - the "Lightless Ones"?  Who or what the heck are they?  A priestly cast of the Norns?  Norns in general who have been so brainwashed that they just sing Utuk'ku's praises all day?  Or strange unknown creatures that live in the dark depths of Stormspike?

There were some more good metaphors in this chapter grouping.  My favourite one is
"Miriamele was watching Camaris, who was surveying the darkness as calmly and possessively as an owl poised to glide from a tree branch."  I also like
"a sense of stillness hung over it, the air somehow taut as an in drawn breath."

Onions make a reappearance, this time in Hernystiri:

"even if they held no more than a handful of onions." Perhaps onions aren't so valued then....

And finally, the cat!  Rachel feeds the cat, the cat comes.  Yeah, that's *very* cat like and self-interested, like I'd expect an animal to be, *but* this cat actively leads Guthwulf to the food.  It has no possible interest in doing so, and to me is un-catlike.  The cat will get food regardless of whether Guthwulf is there or not, it has both Rachel and Guthwulf for comfort, yet we find it acting as a caregiver for Guthwulf, leading him to food, which is just not catlike. I feed my cat, and sometimes I think the neighbours feed him too, but do I expect him to lead me to their house so I can share the extra food too?  No, and I doubt my cat even gives it a moment's thought.

spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers

JustCharlotte wrote:

Right!  Sustenance consumed!

I too like the opening scene in chapter 22, not only because of the human/sithi contrast Firs mentions, but because despite all the growing up Simon has had to do, we still see him as an impatient young man who, like many young people, sometimes gets  stuck in the 'now', rather than looking at the bigger picture.  Contrast this thought of of Simon's,
"It seemed important that she see how much he had grown in the months since they had met.", compared with Aditu's
From what I saw of him, he needs some relief from woe and care." Simon is quite rude and impatient at this point, but Aditu quite rightly puts him in his place.

You're right: there are other things going on in that scene. Also: I really wonder if it's been months since they met. Ylvs usually points out timeline discrepancies.

[b]
When you consider that at the time of the pact of Sesuad'ra, the Norns and Sithi were the dominant race and only tolerating the humans, the Norns got a really bad deal (and must have lost the debate big time) - a few snowy cold mountains, compared to lion's share the Sithi kept for their own.  I'd definitely be bitter about that - which could explain why the Norns seem to hate the Zida'ya so much more than the Zida'ya do in return.

Exactly. Either the Norns are terrible negotiators, or the Sithi are really sneaky negotiators. I don't get it. Why would the Norns agree to cede almost everything to the Sithi? And the Mist Lamp/Tumet'ai part also is strange.

[b]
Another point could be that the Zida'ya fear the influence of Utuk'ku - have any of you noticed how 2D the Norns are compared to the Sithi?  Consider the three Norn assassins -
the desires of their mistress had been poured into them like sour milk from a pitcher" - if all of the Norns are like this, totally under Utuk'ku's thumb, then they're all crazy brain-washed zombies and not independent creatures like the Sithi.

Oh, I don't know about that. I don't think the Norns -- in this case, the specialized Talons-- are particularly crazy brain-washed zombies.

I compare it more to, say, existing Palestinians. Without getting into a full political debate here, I'd say currently, Palestinians are in a very Norn-like situation. They're restricted to certain areas of the Israeli state, and they've become very embittered.

I'm reminded of the Gaza Pullout, when thousands of Israeli settlers were removed from the West Bank and Gaza Strip by their own government. The Palestinians didn't view this as an act of peace; newpaper articles quoted them as saying things like, "It's just a Jewish trick," etc.

In other words, the Palestinians were so embittered, so suspicious of their ememies' motives, that even when the Israelis left, it just made them angrier.

That's the sort of situation I see from the Norns. Their great mistress, Utuk'ku, has filled them with sour milk. No matter what the Sithi or humans do, it will be "too little, too late" for the Norns' satisfaction. They've become poisoned by Utuk'ku's influence, but I wouldn't say they are crazy and brain-washed.

[b]
Some interesting comments about what the Sithi think Utuk'ku and Ineluki are up to: Aditu says to Simon that she thinks Utuk'ku longs for unbeing and that she wants to take as many others with her as possible, *but*  she tells Josua that the Zida'ya think it likely that [Ineluki]

"can send his living minions, and they will help him rule over your brother and, throught him, mankind."

Rule over?  Why is this logical, especially since Aditu thinks Utuk'ku has an apocalyptic style death-wish and the two of them are working together. This stood out for me the first time I ever read the series.  Why not just say, dalek-style, EXTERMINATE!

I think the Norns are less 2D than the Daleks. It could be there are too few Norns left to properly hold and rule all of Osten Ard without back-up support from humans. After all, the Norns' chief rival is still the Sithi. If Utuk'ku hates the Sithi beyond all else (and she does), the best thing to do, and the most cruelly ironic, is use the Sithi's own old allies against them.

[b]
As for the term "Unbeing", I always found this kind of confusing since the Sithi use it a lot.  I guess it's synonymous with extinction, but to me it seems to be used in a more profound way than this.  The Sithi use it when referring to the flight from Venyha Do'sae - so do they mean that at some stage in their past they tetered on a huge morally corupt abyss like some people say we humans teter on now, or something else more scary and final?

IMO, when they speak of their "almost being unmade", it reminds me of a fantasy version of The Bomb. They fled their old homeland because they were in danger of being Unmade, although what that danger is, is never told.

[b]
  Aditu also says to Simon, that the Zida'ya "do not kill any creature if we can avoid doing so" yet comparatively recently (ie Sithi generations, not human), things were atrocious enough on their home planet (*grin* - my interpretation!) that they ran for it.

So you are one of the people who believes that the "eight great ships" that sailed over the "black ocean" are spaceships in outer space? I sometimes wonder this, myself, although the reference is so obscure it could mean just about anything, like the "Ruyan's Own" salad dressing reference.

[b]  I sometimes think (8 ships came, so how many Sithi could fit on each ship?) that the Sithi/Norns who arrived on Osten Ard must have been like quakers or Amish or something like that - a small group escaping larger corruption, only to find that you can't really hide from yourself. 

And I think that is an excellent analogy, Charlotte.

[b]
So when Aditu made the above comment to Simon, I think it kind of inconsistent, that the inner peace/innocence and tranquility they hoped to regain/develop by coming to Osten Ard, is perhaps at odds with the fact that they have a characteristic tendancy to hold long, bitter, destructive grudges (with each other as well as humans) as much as they want to achieve some sort of living nirvana (Ineluki was supposed to lead them back into the light of the living world).  By no means am I saying this is a mistake of Tad's though - I totally love such dichotomies, it brings a 3D sense to the story line.

Yes, I agree.

[b]
Another imperfection of the Sithi: Jiriki says

"There are those among the Zida'ya, even to this day, who feel we should have kept Ruyan Ve's children as servants." One of the reasons I could never much love Tolkien's elves was that they were portrayed as way too perfect for my taste.  I so much more like the darkness that lingers inside of the Sithi.

But Tad makes it clear that the Sithi are based at least somewhat on Tolkien's elves. There are many similar parallels: the 'three great races' of elves, sailing over a great ocean and founding a new land; one of the clans is even a sea-loving clan. When they get to the New World, they break apart, etc...

[b]
One more final thing about the Norns - the "Lightless Ones"?  Who or what the heck are they?  A priestly cast of the Norns?  Norns in general who have been so brainwashed that they just sing Utuk'ku's praises all day?  Or strange unknown creatures that live in the dark depths of Stormspike?

Any of those things are possible, Charlotte. My theory is that they are Evil Dwarrows. Don't laugh!

Here's why I think that: We're never told what became of the Dwarrows at Hikehikayo. They seem to have been taken by the Norns, although that's never confirmed. Where did  they go?

And very late in this series, there's a very short passage which seems to support my hypothesis.

It's clear the Lightless Ones are singers. They sing the praise of their great mistress. Song is an important part of what they are. Somewhat like the Tinukeda'ya, don't you think, whose singing keeps the Kilpa away?

Notice also that when Gan Itai discovers Miriamele's hiding location, she hums to herself. She finds Miriamele. Which is similar to how Aditu locates Jao e-Tinukai'i: she sings.

Very late in this series, there's an obscure, very brief passage where a black-eyed woman walks past Simon in Hjeldin's Tower. She herself does not touch him or harm him in any way. But when Simon leaves the tower, he is immediately captured by the Norns, who were waiting for him, as if they already knew where he was.

This passage is quite similar to the one in which Miriamele is discovered. This woman is unsurprised at seeing Simon in the tower, but she herself does not harm him.

This is just another pet theory, of course, like the geloë theory, and cannot be entirely proved. But it does have some supporting evidence.

[b]
Onions make a reappearance, this time in Hernystiri:

"even if they held no more than a handful of onions." Perhaps onions aren't so valued then....

Or maybe onions are more common in Hernystir, thus devaluing them in the local markets. ;) BTW, I knew you'd mention this passage when I read it myself.

[b]
And finally, the cat!  Rachel feeds the cat, the cat comes.  Yeah, that's *very* cat like and self-interested, like I'd expect an animal to be, *but* this cat actively leads Guthwulf to the food.  It has no possible interest in doing so, and to me is un-catlike.  The cat will get food regardless of whether Guthwulf is there or not, it has both Rachel and Guthwulf for comfort, yet we find it acting as a caregiver for Guthwulf, leading him to food, which is just not catlike. I feed my cat, and sometimes I think the neighbours feed him too, but do I expect him to lead me to their house so I can share the extra food too?  No, and I doubt my cat even gives it a moment's thought.

I don't know. My two cats had very different personalities. One time, one of them brought me a dead rat. It was trying to provide for me, I think. That's not so unnatural for a cat. I have also seen cats that very proudly brought their owners dead birds and such.

And is Grimalkin (I've got to use the word now that I know it!) really so much leading Guthwulf to food, as she is just wandering around to familiar places? It's lonely down there, and she, being a cat, may want a little companionship in the dark tunnels. I don't see this as un-catlike behavior. Just my two cents!

ylvs wrote:

Folks how will I ever get to my own thoughts if whenever I come back there are so many things to answer to????

I'll try to do both today!

Well, there's only seven of us posting regularly, but I think it feels like a larger group because we were used to four for so long. I'm actually really excited that there are seven of us now, and I hope everyone will be able to continue, although that sounds really unlikely.

[b]
Interesting discussion on the Norns, I'm not too sure what is more plausible to me, you both have your points. (Interesting allegary Firsfron!)
But one thing is for sure: the Norns are not very much enjoying life. They sit in their dark icy caves, singing chilly songs ... what made them all lead such a joyless dreadful life? The death of Drukhi is by no means a sufficient reason.

Here I think the Gardenborn are more like the Japanese. I don't know much about Japanese culture, but what I do know is that they really have a culture that honors and respects their elders.

It is clear from the text that the Sithi greatly revere Amerasu their First Grandmother. In the same way, the Norns seem to revere Utuk'ku: she's their Eldest, and if she says "Let's live in icy caves and sing in the dark," I guess they have decided to obey her: she's the only one of them to have ever seen the Garden, and even Aditu says she was the cleverest of the Gardenborn. If even the Sithi admit she was really intelligent, how must it seem to the Norns, heavily influenced by her, and willing to believe her lies?

It is also quite likely that, just as with the Sithi, the Norns are embittered by human-caused deaths among their own families. Maybe if your family is slaughtered by humans, you might want to gloom around in a cave for a few centuries... if the centuries pass quickly for you.

[b]
And I feel urged to say that you both impress me Firfron and Charlotte, you've obviously given this story so much thought - wow!

Well, I feel the same way you do about Charlotte, Ylvs. I really wish she could have gotten her books back earlier, because it would have been nice to have her around earlier. Like during that first chapter, when Simon and Morgenes were eating entire bowls of onions! ;)

Of course, Neemo, Cyan, Elbarad, Ceywren, Elbarad, yourself Ylvs, and the now-absent Susan, clearly have had plenty of interesting comments and some profound insight into this series: I want to make that clear.

[b]
Now I try to bring up some yet unmentioned thoughts:

Miriamele who is always so self centered and pitying herself (I see these annoying traits althoughI tend to defend her) sees her own situation in a new light due to the lifestory of Tiamak:

"I'm not the first person to feel lonely, to feel misunderstood and unwanted. [...] Listening to Tiamak [...] Miriamele was dismayed by her own willfull ignorance."

But alas! She's not able to change her personality. Shortly after she finds the impetus of her father's doings and is not sharing it with anyone, not now not later - but will takes it as a cause to run away again. But I'm hurrying ahead as well...

Miriamele is self-centered, but at least here in this passage, she realizes she is self-centered, and feels a little guilty for it. She doesn't change, but it's a small step.

[b]
Then there si this strange little scene at the arrival at Sesuad'ra featuring Camaris that I cannot make head or tail of:

"Camaris who had brought up the rear, paused at the gap in the trees to stare down into the valley. His long face did not change expression, but he remained  where he was for a long time before following the others."

Why is that? What is he anticipating pondering? Ideas?

I had originally assumed it was because he saw the Stone of Farewell, and recognized it. I had thought it must have "pulled him back to reality" for a moment. But now that I consider your question, I think it is just as likely that he felt the sword Thorn.

[b]
There is a little bit on Ineluki and Utuk'ku I have to add but have to restrain from for today as my back is hurting like hell from carrying the baby and my muscles will implode if I continue typing.

So I leave it for the moment.

So sorry to hear about your back pain, Ylvs. To be truthful, I didn't think a newborn would weigh that much, but I hadn't considered you carrying her around all day. I just hope you feel better. :)

*vaguely remembers the simile/metaphor discussions from high school english* 's much good pointingness, yes. :)

and firs, the fact that you're calling me a regular poster in this reread makes me a bit nervous. i feel guilty for not having read the books in a year now. *is ashamed*

And I'll freely admit that Tad uses metaphors pretty infrequently, but he does use them. For example, on the very first page of DBC, the citizens of the Hayholt are described as busy bees, with one bee not busy at all, sitting in the garden, playing in the dirt.

(edited for bad speelingg)

[ March 01, 2006: Message edited by: Firsfron of Ronchester ]

Why would the Norns agree to cede almost everything to the Sithi? And the Mist Lamp/Tumet'ai part also is strange.

The only thing that I can think of is that the glowing construction of light Simon saw at Sesuad'ra is somehow physically, as well as culturally binding. The Norns don't travel very well in Oldheart - magic, or if you like, enhanced psychic-like abilities seem to be part of Sithi capabilities (Witness Amerasu's, Utuk'ku's and Ineluki's demonstrations of power). Another possibility: the Sithi set much store by honourable actions and like Aditu says to Simon - they don't kill things unless they have to.  Utuk'ku and the other smaller clans supporting her were all for wiping out the humans.  Would this not violate a significant part of their value system, especially if this is the very sort of behaviour they were trying to escape from in Venyha Do'sae?  Killing all humans, despite the very real grievances against humans would mark a significant, unacceptable and dishonourable course of action.  This may be why the Sithi gained the upper hand.  Stormspike *is* pretty far away from humanity.  Maybe they were forced there by the Sithi to prevent any dishonourable actions.

I compare it more to, say, existing Palestinians. Without getting into a full political debate here, I'd say currently, Palestinians are in a very Norn-like situation. They're restricted to certain areas of the Israeli state, and they've become very embittered.

But one thing is for sure: the Norns are not very much enjoying life. They sit in their dark icy caves, singing chilly songs ... what made them all lead such a joyless dreadful life? The death of Drukhi is by no means a sufficient reason.

These are both good points.  Ok, so zombies was probably an extreme discription, but to me, brainwashed isn't, because that's how I view the middle-east situation as well.  In both cases it seems some *very* unhealthy ideals have become mainstream in the cultures, but I think my main point is that Utuk'ku is very powerful, more than any of the other Norns, and she is corrupt and therefore less likely to have scruples about directing the way her people think, either through constant hate-based dialogue or more direct mental meddling.

So you are one of the people who believes that the "eight great ships" that sailed over the "black ocean" are spaceships in outer space? I sometimes wonder this, myself, although the reference is so obscure it could mean just about anything, like the "Ruyan's Own" salad dressing reference.

 

*grin*  Yeah, it's the explanation that I like most, but nothing the Sithi ever say completely confirms or denies it.  Which is absolutely in character - we're constantly told how vague the Sithi can be.  I know you guys discussed it before, but how well would it go down for humans if the Sithi said they came from another planet.  We don't even know if the Osten Ard humans have worked out that the earth travels around the sun and isn't flat etc. On the other hand, (being a one-time biology student), if the Sithi and humans evolved on the same planet, then ultimately they would have some sort of genetic relationship - they can mate sucessfully!  So there are arguments from both sides, but I like the space one better.  It's more like a myth story (like one could say about the older parts of the bible), rather than factual.

But Tad makes it clear that the Sithi are based at least somewhat on Tolkien's elves. There are many similar parallels: the 'three great races' of elves, sailing over a great ocean and founding a new land; one of the clans is even a sea-loving clan. When they get to the New World, they break apart, etc...

Yes, but they are structural parallels, rather than character parallels, don't you think?  Like the Elves the Sithi have a hang up about death, but since Elves don't die the same way the Sithi *can*, even this theme eventuates as something different.

Any of those things are possible, Charlotte. My theory is that they are Evil Dwarrows. Don't laugh!

I'm not laughing! Honest!  No, I actually hadn't thought of that at all, and it seems very likely to me now that I think about it!

BTW, I knew you'd mention this passage when I read it myself.
 

*snigger* I'll try to be less heavy-handed with the onions from now on...

  One time, one of them brought me a dead rat. It was trying to provide for me, I think. That's not so unnatural for a cat. I have also seen cats that very proudly brought their owners dead birds and such.

No, it's not unusual, and people have done studies on cats to look at this behaviour I think.  What would be unusual, I think, if your cat were to take you to the rat it had killed.  That is *not* instinctive behaviour and I can't think of any examples (animal behaviourist I am not!!!)where animals would do that in the wild, where it did not serve the animals own interest.  Ants or bees do something similar, but that's a different issue I think.

And I feel urged to say that you both impress me Firfron and Charlotte, you've obviously given this story so much thought - wow!

*warm smile*  Thanks! I guess it helps that this series is one of my favourites, so I have spent more time reflecting and trying to get inside of the story, but I will have to say that many of my thoughts have been triggered by what other people have had to say and that if I hadn't been reading this thread then maybe I would not have come up with some many ideas.  :-)  So kudos go out to everyone here!

Then there si this strange little scene at the arrival at Sesuad'ra featuring Camaris that I cannot make head or tail of:

"Camaris who had brought up the rear, paused at the gap in the trees to stare down into the valley. His long face did not change expression, but he remained where he was for a long time before following the others."

 

Josua, the living proof of his sin is there, and even if he has buried everything else, maybe this bubbles somewhere at the top of his subconscious, making him uneasy. 

Well, I feel the same way you do about Charlotte, Ylvs. I really wish she could have gotten her books back earlier, because it would have been nice to have her around earlier. Like during that first chapter, when Simon and Morgenes were eating entire bowls of onions! ;)

It's a cold day here, but now I have warm fuzzies to take the edge off!  Believe me, I was itching to join in!

But, and I'm very sorry, I have this itch I need to scratch: Tad usually does not use metaphors. Real metaphors are quite rare for his works, actually. (I wrote a little high school paper on Otherland, so I had to research this.) What he does use to great effect, though, are similes. 

You are totally right Lian!  I originally started by using both terms, but it got clunky so I, erroneously, just started using the word metaphor.  I am well aware of the difference and should have been paying more attention to the terms I used!  :-)

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

And I'll freely admit that Tad uses metaphors pretty infrequently, but he does use them. For example, on the very first page of DBC, the citizens of the Hayholt are described as busy bees, with one bee not busy at all, sitting in the garden, playing in the dirt.


(edited for bad speelingg)

[ March 01, 2006: Message edited by: Firsfron of Ronchester ]

Heh!  That's both metaphor and simile there!

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

So sorry to hear about your back pain, Ylvs. To be truthful, I didn't think a newborn would weigh that much, but I hadn't considered you carrying her around all day. I just hope you feel better. :)

She's not considered a newborn anymore but a veritable baby and she weighs 13 lbs now which means she#s gaining weight much faster than I'm gaining muscles. Anyway it's midday now and the pain is tolarable so I take the chance and post my last little thought concerning the dreamroad/Master Witnesses topic:

Ineluki's headquarter is the speakfire in Hikehikayo as we worked out when the dwarrows first appeared.
He can also "travel" from one witness to the other which can be deduced from Utuk'ku's mentioning of his absense from the Well (why is that btw? Did he retreat to whereever gaining strenght for the final round?)
Utuk'ku notices Jiriki's "dabbling with one of the master Witnesses", his trying to look through the Shard.
Jiriki on the other hand claims that the Shard cannot be focussed on anything else but the Speakfire (Ineluki's den).

This seems illogical to me. If the shard is focussed on the Speakfire how can Utuk#ku notice Jiriki? if the Master Witnesses allow access to the dreamroad how can one of them be prevented from this access?

the master Witnesses work like the Palantiri in LOTR it seems where this discrepancy can be found as well. Or do I miss something very simple here?

Did anybody mention Jiriki's funny scene with Eolair yet?

"Being saved by mortals. It has become a sort of habit for me, it seems."

He shows some of the same dry humour as Aditu here imho.

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Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

I had originally assumed it was because he saw the Stone of Farewell, and recognized it. I had thought it must have "pulled him back to reality" for a moment. But now that I consider your question, I think it is just as likely that he felt the sword Thorn.

I have to agree with that.

Ah ylvs sorry your back hurts :( Bones not quite back to pre pregnacy state yet? My wife's back still hurts from time to time. same pain as she had in late stages of pregancy.

While on the topic of babies and such. My daughter is talking like mad and is cute as hell, but she has decided that biting is a good way to punish people. She drew blood at the babysitters yesterday *yikes* Bit a little boy on the hand. Any help on disipline for that kinda thing? she's 17 months old. and being nice and saying 'No no biting' just isn't cutting it.

Wow looks like we got our second wind for the re-read huh. good stuff. ok I'll belatedly post my thoughts, i think i read all the comments on here.

Chapter 20
Aditu & Simon talking about Ineluki in the "Observatory" She must think Ineluki has tremendous control over the draem road as she seems to think the Stormking can here them just by them being in the area. and she gets a chuckle of the name Geloe gave the place.

"Houses of Exile" must mean they were exiled from their homeland. Do we know for what reason? natural desaster possibly?

Simon behaves oddly to me when Jeremias announces that Miri had arrived. Why? Just in shock? Feels like he's not ready to see her again? afraid the freindship is gone?

Chapter 21

Tiamak confirms why he freaked out on Cadrach. and Isgrimnur is not at all impressed by a Rimmersgard artifact? why do you think that is? Even a grizzled soldier would respect that time of his nations history i would've thought. It's puzzling to me.

What was with the Ravens? obviously a throwback to Tolkien but this has only happened only once so far that i can recall and never again. Miri finally figures out what her father enlisted Pryrates for.

How would Miri know Ruben the bear? kinda odd statement IMO.

Then Miri shuns Simon, I'm sorry but she was a Bitch (note the capital "B") for that one.

Chapter 22

What caused the problem with Uttuku? did we ever figure out? Josua retreiveing Thorn?

ylvs wrote:

Did anybody mention Jiriki's funny scene with Eolair yet?

"Being saved by mortals. It has become a sort of habit for me, it seems."

He shows some of the same dry humour as Aditu here imho.

Yeah it was funny :D I have a question though Sithi are only allowed to be saved once or something? You figure there would be more white arrows to go around. Jiriki was like, "thanks for saving my life but i can't be indebted to you for life now cuz i already gave my arrow to someone else, sorry about your luck Eolair *shrugs*" what is with that???

Do you think that the storm king was pressing in on Eolairs dream. and funny that he was having Simons dream. Now is simon having his own dreams or is he subseptable to the Dream road so he has glimpses of the Storm Kings plans? if so what does a wheel have to do with Ineluki?

Gulthwulf is clearly mad. and Of course a normal cat would come back to a place where it knows food is available. just leave some milk on your porch for strays and see if they stick around :)

bump

While on the topic of babies and such. My daughter is talking like mad and is cute as hell, but she has decided that biting is a good way to punish people. She drew blood at the babysitters yesterday *yikes* Bit a little boy on the hand. Any help on disipline for that kinda thing? she's 17 months old. and being nice and saying 'No no biting' just isn't cutting it.

Neemo - Toddlers bite because they get frustrated because they cannot communicate what they are feeling. That said, consequences must be immediate, firm and delivered without emotion. Take her away from the situation and give her "time out," if that works for her. After she's calmed down, sit down and talk to her, see if you can figure out what's going on (although this is very difficult with a toddler).

She needs to learn to communicate her feelings in a socially and less painful way. Good luck!