Tad Williams' Message Board

Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- 'God damn it, you've got to be kind.'
-    Kurt Vonnegut, 1922-2007

Welcome to the message board for tadwilliams.com. All comments are welcome, whether kudos or brickbats. However, please bear in mind that Tad would like this to be a friendly, civil message board, at least in the relations between users. We reserve the right to remove postings, or even ban postings, from anyone who crosses the boundary of reasonable taste. Basically, you can argue vigorously with someone, but watch your language, okay? We have a lot of young readers as well as grown-ups, so please show them some respect.

But the main requirement here is: have fun.


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#1 2003-03-18 14:20:00

bandit
Pilgrim
From: Auckland
Registered: 2002-11-13
Posts: 4134
Website

The Art of Rhetoric

This is a place for people who wish to enter into a formal debate. Each debater agrees to follow the guidelines to the best of their abilities. All debates are self-regulatory (there is no moderator at this point). The guidelines are as follows:

INFORMATION -

To formulate your position, you will be employing either inductive or deductive arguments. Examples are as follows:

A deductive argument is an argument in which the conclusion is claimed or intended to follow from the premises.

Example:
All humans are mortal.
Socrates is human.
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.


An inductive argument is an argument in which the conclusion is claimed or intended to follow probably from the premises.

Example:
Polls show that 75% of Republicans favor a school prayer amendment.
Joe is a Republican.
Therefore, Joe probably favors a school prayer amendment.


Errors in your argument are called logical fallacies. The logical fallacies are as follows:The Logical Fallacies: Index
The Fallacy Files


STRUCTURE -

The order of a formal debate is as follows:

a. First affirmative constructive argument.(1AC)

Establishes affirmatives advocacy of resolution.

May include the following -
(There is a problem that could be solved - SIGNIFICANCE, HARM, ADVANTAGE

The status quo isn’t going to solve this problem without change - INHERENCY

Here is our specific proposal of what ought to be done - PLAN

Our plan will solve the problem/harm - SOLVENCY)


b. Negative questioning of first affirmative constructive argument. (1AC)

Ask question to help you understand their arguments. GET INFORMATION

Ask questions to set up your arguments to come. USE ANSWERS AGAINST THEM LATER


c. First negative constructive argument. (1NC)

Attacks affirmative and begins laying out additional issues negative

May include the following -
(Make arguments against the specifics of the affirmative case. CASE ARGUMENTS

Argue that if the plan is adopted bad things will happen. DISADVANTAGES

Argue that the fundamental assumptions of the affirmative are flawed/incorrect. CRITIQUE

Argue that the plan is not a representation of the topic. TOPICALITY

Argue that there would be a better alternative to the plan. COUNTERPLAN)


d. Affirmative questioning of first negative constructive argument. (1NC)

Ask question to help you understand their arguments. GET INFORMATION

Ask questions to set up your arguments to come. USE ANSWERS AGAINST THEM LATER


e. Second affirmative constructive argument.(2AC)

Defend affirmative positions, attack negative positions, last chance to introduce new issues for affirmative.

May include the following -
(Argue that the disadvantages are really reasons to vote affirmative. TURNS

Argue that the counterplan and the affirmative plan can co-exist. PERMUTATIONS)


f. Negative questioning of second affirmative constructive argument. (2AC)

Ask question to help you understand their arguments. GET INFORMATION

Ask questions to set up your arguments to come. USE ANSWERS AGAINST THEM LATER


g. Second negative constructive argument. (2NC)

Attack affirmative positions, defend negative positions, last chance to introduce new issues for the negative.

h. Affirmative questioning of second negative construtive argument. (2NC)

Ask question to help you understand their arguments. GET INFORMATION

Ask questions to set up your arguments to come. USE ANSWERS AGAINST THEM LATER


These rules are to encourage structure and brevity.

For more explanation on the rules and terms consult:
The Art of Speech
Influencing Through Argument

OF NOTE -

Taking offence to a position is not an argument.
Disliking a participant or their point of view is not an agrgument.
Attacking a participant's character or morals is not an argument, and is STRICTLY VERBOTEN.
Attacking the morality of an argument is permittable however.
Personality should be as discreet as possible - arguments are based on facts and must be verifiable. Opinions and anecdotal evidence may be disregarded.
Arguments may be altered with the inclusion of new evidence - however this must be noted by whomever is doing the altering.
Only the structure of the above must be used - the terms may be used or not, depending on preference.

Noodle whippings will be furnished for those who cannot follow the guidelines.

Please feel free to ask for clarification on any of the above at any time.


Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf.
Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples.
- MST3K

 

#2 2003-03-18 14:37:00

Sahi
Mantis
From: Assendelft (the Netherlands)
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 44999
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

*sneaks in with a vase of roses*

Welcome to the neighbourhood!

yalahii.


"Because it is scientifically impossible to have enough books." - Patrick Rothfuss

Scrollbearer
First member of the Shadowmarch Council of Sages, Official Quiller's Mint Historian
You may call me the Porcupine Lady, or if you are feeling generous the Erinaceous One.

 

#3 2003-03-18 16:17:00

bandit
Pilgrim
From: Auckland
Registered: 2002-11-13
Posts: 4134
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

It has begun! Mwahaha! ...now watch this space remain unused and fill with dust. /self-directed pessimism


Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf.
Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples.
- MST3K

 

#4 2003-03-18 17:11:00

jaded
Pilgrim
Registered: 2001-08-19
Posts: 10900

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

congrats on the place, bandit!

*drags in lovely, old wood lectern*

for you...:)

happy debating!

 

#5 2003-03-18 18:07:00

Binky
Pilgrim
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2001-06-13
Posts: 4353

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Nice place!  Right...

Bandit is a debater
Debaters are small furry animals
THEREFORE
Bandit is involved in a secret conspiracy to overthrow the dinosaurs.

*smugs* what flawless logic :-)

 

#6 2003-03-18 20:12:00

Damon
Pilgrim
From: enzed
Registered: 2001-05-31
Posts: 10673
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Nifty-skip!  I'm no expert in the Rules of Rhetoric and Debate (two different things, I thought), but I shall try to formulate a proposition for debate regarding 'The Purpose of the UN', as that seems to be one of the major points at issue regarding the oncoming war.  I intend to be arguing the pro-UN anti-unilateral position, albeit very simply (at least to begin with).


Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe
"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."

 

#7 2003-03-18 21:33:00

bandit
Pilgrim
From: Auckland
Registered: 2002-11-13
Posts: 4134
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

They are different things. But the foundation of a lot of our rules for debating come from Aristotle's "The Art of Rhetoric"; so the terms are sometimes used interchangably (albeit incorrectly). Soon, with practice, we will all hopefully become master...debaters? Muahahaha! Muahaha! Muaha! Muaha. Haha. Ha. Um. *clears throat* Whew!


Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf.
Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples.
- MST3K

 

#8 2003-03-19 05:45:00

rimmers
Pilgrim
From: vienna
Registered: 2002-04-29
Posts: 3251

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

hey Bandit, nice place you have here. of course it could be a little exhausting to have a formal debate on smarch.

(this reminds me of the formal logic lecture which i passed quite successful.)

Russell īs paradox, just for fun...

 

#9 2003-05-03 14:23:00

bandit
Pilgrim
From: Auckland
Registered: 2002-11-13
Posts: 4134
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Since this place is dead in the water - and since I agitated for it - I'm gonna do something else with it til somebody wants to put it to proper use. (*thinks* What's wrong with these people? It's almost like they don't like to argue. ;D) Now what to do, what to do. Since there's already a lectern in place, I think I'm gonna start posting unrelated (or maybe related) mini lectures about things that interest me (and hopefully other people). I don't know how frequently or what, but - open classroom style - please feel free to comment, add your own, or ignore entirely. Just don't smoke any weed in here, the last thing I want is a bunch of empty doritos and fritos bags littering up the place.


Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf.
Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples.
- MST3K

 

#10 2003-05-03 15:08:00

bandit
Pilgrim
From: Auckland
Registered: 2002-11-13
Posts: 4134
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Okay, I changed my mind. Know what I'm going to do instead? Crayon Raves. The opposite of Crayon Rants. Should have one up sometime today.


Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf.
Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples.
- MST3K

 

#11 2003-05-03 17:23:00

Damon
Pilgrim
From: enzed
Registered: 2001-05-31
Posts: 10673
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Cool. Are you going to change the title of the topic? (done by editing the first post)

If it's to be a rave, will there be live music and dancing?


Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe
"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."

 

#12 2003-05-03 17:23:00

bandit
Pilgrim
From: Auckland
Registered: 2002-11-13
Posts: 4134
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Crayon Rave #1: Silent Films

Ever get tired of the paltry, repetitive, and bourgeois dialogue used in most movies nowadays? The cure is here: movies with no talking. It's amazing to see how a good actor or actress can tell an entire story with movement and gesture and facial expressions (and the occasional expository placard). Lillian Gish can say more with her face in one take than most actors do now in an entire scene. Eloquent.

Silent films were primarily made between the early 1900s until roughly 1927 - the year the first talkie The Jazz Singer was released - at which point sadly many of the great silent films stars were unable to transition to the new style, and their careers subsequently faded. The subject matter in films of the silent era still seems as vital today in many cases as it did back then. One possible reason for this was the medium itself - without the luxury of dialogue, the narrative of film had to be simple and situations easily identifiable. There is also interestingly an element of improvisation in many films, as most of them had nothing like a script to work off of; but instead the actors and actresses were directed by the director (wait! Directed by the...director? "Inconceivable!") on how the scenes should play out - while they were filming. Another interesting advantage of dialogueless cinema is the ease with which it was imported and exported to other countries. No language means no interpreting, and the stories were universal enough to play anywhere with instant recognition.

It's also fun to see film at that early stage. You can literally watch the style evolve. For instance, an early film by DW Griffith Judith of Bethulia has the camera entirely stationary - the thought process for early films was that they should be blocked like plays, with the viewer allowed only one non-motile viewpoint. But then only four years later in Broken Blossoms it has been realized that the camera can be moved in many many different ways to accentuate whatever mood or information is attempting to be conveyed. The camera becomes almost its own entity and allows the viewer a bird's eye view of the unfolding story that would be impossible in almost any other medium. For more on the subject of early film cinematography, check out Some Notes on the Evolution of Style which is pretty thorough.

Recommended viewing -
The works of the Lumiere Brothers
Rescued By Rover
Broken Blossoms
Greed
The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari
Metropolis
A Trip to the Moon
The Wind
Foolish Wives
The General
The Last Laugh
City Lights
The Kid
A House Divided


Resources -
Silent Era - the Silent Film Website
Amazon
Early Cinema

[ May 03, 2003: Message edited by: Bandit ]


Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf.
Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples.
- MST3K

 

#13 2003-05-03 17:30:00

bandit
Pilgrim
From: Auckland
Registered: 2002-11-13
Posts: 4134
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Nah, I'll leave it alone - the topic title I mean. I still think this place could serve a vital function, just as long as people are willing to use it.

There shall be lights and dancing! But um, only of the sedate and opinionated kind. Like, My strobe and running-man are better than your glowstick and grind!


Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf.
Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples.
- MST3K

 

#14 2003-05-03 17:30:00

Damon
Pilgrim
From: enzed
Registered: 2001-05-31
Posts: 10673
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari

Next month, next month...

I've heard of Greed, too, and Metropolis and A Trip to the Moon, of course. But they're so hard to come by!


Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe
"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."

 

#15 2003-05-03 17:31:00

bandit
Pilgrim
From: Auckland
Registered: 2002-11-13
Posts: 4134
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

You can get a bunch through amazon. Does NZ have it's own amazon, or do you guys have to go through AUs?


Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf.
Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples.
- MST3K

 

#16 2003-05-03 17:45:00

Damon
Pilgrim
From: enzed
Registered: 2001-05-31
Posts: 10673
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

We had a local service (FlyingPig) but it didn't. Fly, that is.

Plus I don't believe there is an Amazon Australia.


Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe
"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."

 

#17 2003-05-03 17:50:00

bandit
Pilgrim
From: Auckland
Registered: 2002-11-13
Posts: 4134
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Okay my bad. I thought they did. Maybe it was B&N or Borders or something. Also, um, I don't suppose your thing got there yet? *squirms with impatience* Although I've built it up so much that now it'll definately suck. }:/


Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf.
Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples.
- MST3K

 

#18 2003-05-03 17:52:00

bandit
Pilgrim
From: Auckland
Registered: 2002-11-13
Posts: 4134
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

JEEE-sus I had like 20 posts today. That's a lot for me.


Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf.
Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples.
- MST3K

 

#19 2003-05-03 17:52:00

bandit
Pilgrim
From: Auckland
Registered: 2002-11-13
Posts: 4134
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Time to go! Bwahahaha!


Crow: I think Ray Liotta would make an okay werewolf.
Tom Servo: No, he smells like apples.
- MST3K

 

#20 2003-05-03 18:05:00

Damon
Pilgrim
From: enzed
Registered: 2001-05-31
Posts: 10673
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Bye! Not yet - I am several thousand miles away.


Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe
"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."

 

#21 2003-05-05 02:14:00

Sahi
Mantis
From: Assendelft (the Netherlands)
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 44999
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Nice rave!

Yalahii.


"Because it is scientifically impossible to have enough books." - Patrick Rothfuss

Scrollbearer
First member of the Shadowmarch Council of Sages, Official Quiller's Mint Historian
You may call me the Porcupine Lady, or if you are feeling generous the Erinaceous One.

 

#22 2003-05-05 02:42:00

Venkelos
Pilgrim
From: In England but my heart is in
Registered: 2001-06-10
Posts: 14873

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

@la Bandida: Just a side question. Wasn`t a lot of the mood in silent pictures conveyed by a pianist playing live in the cinema (thus ensuring no two performances, esp. in different theatres) would ever be the same? They really ought to bring that back.. The musicians would appreciate the work I`m sure.


WILD MAGIC LADY FORUM

Send a Cow

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
- George Bernard Shaw -

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 -

 

#23 2003-05-05 08:51:00

The Sixth Viking
Pilgrim
Registered: 2001-06-24
Posts: 2026

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Welcome to the Neighborhood Bandit!


Do you sass that hoopy Ford Prefect? There's a frood who knows where his towel is ~ Douglas Adams - The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy.

 

#24 2003-05-11 23:31:00

Damon
Pilgrim
From: enzed
Registered: 2001-05-31
Posts: 10673
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Not actually a silent movie, but I just decided that I should remedy the fact that I've never watched a Kurosawa film and have borrowed the full-length Shichinin No Samurai from the Massey Library. Lots of bandits in there!


Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe
"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."

 

#25 2003-05-14 17:17:00

Damon
Pilgrim
From: enzed
Registered: 2001-05-31
Posts: 10673
Website

Re: The Art of Rhetoric

Shichinin No Samurai was great! So much so that I may just work to convince people to watch some more old movies. On the list currently (and available via the Massey library system):

Fellini's 8 1/2
de Sica's The Bicycle Thief
Sturges' Sullivan's Travels
Griffith's The Birth of a Nation
(if only they had good copies of them I'd also include Metropolis, Greed,
The Seventh Seal)

And of course all the other famous Kurosawa pics: The Hidden Fortress, Rashomon, Ran...


Damon.co.nz: Where the homeless come to bathe
"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."

 

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