Tad Williams' Message Board

Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- 'God damn it, you've got to be kind.'
-    Kurt Vonnegut, 1922-2007

Welcome to the message board for tadwilliams.com. All comments are welcome, whether kudos or brickbats. However, please bear in mind that Tad would like this to be a friendly, civil message board, at least in the relations between users. We reserve the right to remove postings, or even ban postings, from anyone who crosses the boundary of reasonable taste. Basically, you can argue vigorously with someone, but watch your language, okay? We have a lot of young readers as well as grown-ups, so please show them some respect.

But the main requirement here is: have fun.


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#1 2001-06-19 04:05:00

Ian Johnson
Pilgrim
Registered: 2001-06-01
Posts: 11635

"In My Humble Opinion"

Is there a single phrase in the English language more ingratiating, more condescending, more oily, more downright annoying, and one that could possibly make a person sound less humble than this? Here is Terry Pratchett to explain why:

The best way to describe Mr Windling would be like this: you are at a meeting. You'd like to be away early. So would everyone else. There really isn' very much to discuss, anyway. And just as everyone can see Any Other Business coming over the horizon and is already putting their papers neatly together, a voice says 'If I can raise a minor matter, Mr Chairman...' and with a horrible wooden feeling in your stomach you know, now, that the evening will go on for twice as long with much referring back to the minutes of earlier meetings. The man who has just said that, and is now sitting there with a smug smile of dedication to the committee process, is as near Mr Windling as makes no difference. And something that distinguishes the Mr Windlings of the universe is the term 'in my humble opinion', which they think adds to their statements rather than indicating, in reality, 'these are the mean little views of someone with the social grace of duckweed'. - Terry Pratchett, The Truth

 

#2 2001-06-19 04:45:00

The Hound
Pilgrim
From: Austria, Europe
Registered: 2001-06-03
Posts: 188

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

You have found it? I searched for it yesterday but didn't found it in the book. So I put it onto my reading list again. *gg*


So many vows... they make you swear and swear. Defend the kind. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.
Ser Jaime Lannister, Commander of the Kingsguard, Kingslayer, ASoIaF

 

#3 2001-06-19 06:16:00

Pretzalz
Pilgrim
From: USA
Registered: 2001-06-02
Posts: 2161

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

That is the whole point of saying IMHO instead.  It is a word of its own(im-HO) that conveys a whole meaning of its own independent of the phrase associated with it.  It means that the person is about to say something absurd, but they want to assure you that they are deadly serious.  In a similar way, lol doesn't really have any relationship to laugh out loud, but instead signifies that  the post isn't meant to be taken seriously or else when used alone as a sign of approval.  My personal favorite however is BS (not to be confused with an ScB) which signifies that someone just pulled the preceding out of their a**.

Oh I almost forgot:

BS.

lol  :)


Jane: Ohh, you are trying to deal with your loneliness by surrounding yourself with friends, hmm, how's that going to work?

 

#4 2001-06-19 06:46:00

Yanos
Pilgrim
From: Liverpool, UK; Saudi Arabia
Registered: 2001-06-18
Posts: 6

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

Is it possible to get across, without endangering the minds of the under-four-foot-brigade, what an ScB is? Strange though the question may seem, you see before you one who is somewhat untrained in jargon of all sorts.


"To read is makes our speaky English good..."

 

#5 2001-06-19 08:05:00

Ian Johnson
Pilgrim
Registered: 2001-06-01
Posts: 11635

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

"IMHO" still generates in me the urge to reach through the monitor and throttle the insufferable little goit that typed it. Somehow, the act of abbreviating it doesn't make it any more polite - just cowardly. Somebody announcing that their point is humble (usually in such a way as to imply that your point is rather more humble than their's) doesn't do them any favours, either. It's like that running gag about Honest Joe's. I mean - dead to irony? Just not plugged in? What?!

Sorry. It just winds me up. :-)

I have the same reaction to people who habitually start paragraphs or conclude them with "actually", "as it happens" or "in point of fact". They're wallpaper words - they're there strictly to make a badly-thought-out idea look a little less bare.

 

#6 2001-06-19 08:29:00

ElderTurtle
Pilgrim
From: Lexington, KY USA
Registered: 2001-06-12
Posts: 5974
Website

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

Ack!  My deepest apologies then, for I know I am guilty of using that phrase. 

Please, understand that when I have in the past (or if I do so in the future) I am not attempting to be condescending – rather I am recognizing that, ultimately, what I write originates from my own, subjective understanding of a given topic.  Having studied philosophy and logic, I am painfully aware of exactly how wrong I can (potentially) be – on just about everything.  Rather than state something as a “fact” or a “truth” (particularly when there is considerable debate on a topic) I always prefer to remind both the reader (and, in many ways, myself) that what I put forth is ultimately only one man’s opinion and should be taken as such.

The fact that I am prone to write horrifically long postings doesn’t help matters much either.  I fear that some may be turned off by a torrent of words, or unduly swayed by them (figuring, in some twisted form of logic, that if I can write so much on a subject, I must be correct.)  No, one can use a great many words, say absolutely nothing of importance, and be dead wrong in every particular.  I have been guilty of this in the past, and will almost certainly be guilty of this in the future.  In my own writings, I always use the dreaded IMHO (either as an abbreviation or by writing it out) as a recognition of that fact.

So, for any I may have offended by my use of language (whether of particular phrases or shear length of discourse) I apologize.  No offense or disrespect is or was intended, I assure you.

ElderTurtle (P.o.W.)

“Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maximus Culpa”
Latin (trans.): “I am guilty, I am guilty, I am most guilty.”


Irony: God gave the turtle a drag coefficient of 0.3

"All limits are self imposed." -- Icarus

 

#7 2001-06-19 08:29:00

keijukainen
Pilgrim
From: new york city
Registered: 2001-06-05
Posts: 855
Website

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

huh. to me, "imho" gets used more when you're treading on the edge of what could be a flame-war, & you want to express your opinion but not necessarily rile everyone up worse. so you tack on "imho" to, uh, indicate that it's YOUR two cents, & uh... ymmv. (hahahaha)

tho' i use it when i'm being purposely obnoxious sometimes too.


hey happy tell me your story
hey happy give me your name
why have you been sitting there all quiet and shy
have i not been listening?
-amy martin

affinity * diffuse

 

#8 2001-06-19 08:34:00

Ian Johnson
Pilgrim
Registered: 2001-06-01
Posts: 11635

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

Wouldn't "IMO" take even less time, though, and still indicate the same thing whilst leaving no room for misinterpretation?

 

#9 2001-06-19 08:36:00

keijukainen
Pilgrim
From: new york city
Registered: 2001-06-05
Posts: 855
Website

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

eh, i guess so, but i've never seen it used w/as much frequency as "imho," so it's that one that seems to have gotten stuck in my (& others') minds.

i tend to explain myself more when i'm trying to get across that it's MY pov & that i don't necessarily think it's fitting for everyone, tho', so i don't use it an awful lot. instead, i go into this whole paragraph on "well, here's where i'm coming fr. on this..." comes fr. doing women's studies--you get really conscious of not truly being able to speak for anyone else who is coming fr. somewhere else.


hey happy tell me your story
hey happy give me your name
why have you been sitting there all quiet and shy
have i not been listening?
-amy martin

affinity * diffuse

 

#10 2001-06-19 08:49:00

Ian Johnson
Pilgrim
Registered: 2001-06-01
Posts: 11635

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

That it's well-intentioned isn't being disputed. Whether or not it'd a wise move is. :-)

 

#11 2001-06-19 09:06:00

keijukainen
Pilgrim
From: new york city
Registered: 2001-06-05
Posts: 855
Website

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

yeah, but i disagree w/your main premise here, that it makes a person sound ingratiating & oily & all that. so to my mind, intention is the most important thing to keep in mind when considering this phrase. imho.

*ducks*


hey happy tell me your story
hey happy give me your name
why have you been sitting there all quiet and shy
have i not been listening?
-amy martin

affinity * diffuse

 

#12 2001-06-19 09:53:00

Jendaiya
Pilgrim
From: Canada
Registered: 2001-06-01
Posts: 21821
Website

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

*shudders*

*twitches*

I don't like it much myself. I by far prefer IMO, to the one with the extra letter. It just sounds a bit pretentious. I don't get terribly ticked off or anything, I just kinda shudder.  I know why people use it, but couldn't they leave out the 'Humble' part? It just doesn't seem that by the time people start to use it, that they aren't very humble anymore. Then again, some people use it all the time and it seems a bit different for them than the ones who throw it in to ward off nasty feelings during a heated debate.


Beauty will save the world.

~Prince Myshkin,

The Idiot, by Dostoevsky

 

#13 2001-06-19 10:08:00

keijukainen
Pilgrim
From: new york city
Registered: 2001-06-05
Posts: 855
Website

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

i just wanted to clarify: when i said above that in my experience the phrase gets thrown around when ppl are trying not to make a heated debate explode into a flame war, i didn't mean that ppl would be saying nasty, flame-ish things & expecting that by tossing out an "imho" they would get away w/it. more like when ppl are stating opinions in a non-flamey way, but the tension's a little high & so they want to make an extra effort not to appear like they're flaming someone.


hey happy tell me your story
hey happy give me your name
why have you been sitting there all quiet and shy
have i not been listening?
-amy martin

affinity * diffuse

 

#14 2001-06-19 10:16:00

Pretzalz
Pilgrim
From: USA
Registered: 2001-06-02
Posts: 2161

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

endanger the under four foot brigade?   ScB  is just Bachelor of Science and hence why it might be confused with BS.  They say ScB at my University since they still give out the degrees in Latin and so in Latin the Science part comes first.  :))  It's sort of funny at graduation how when they confer the degrees on the whole class they had to tell us what order they would be doing them in since otherwise people wouldn't know when to stand. lol


Jane: Ohh, you are trying to deal with your loneliness by surrounding yourself with friends, hmm, how's that going to work?

 

#15 2001-06-19 10:19:00

Gigi
Pilgrim
From: dunno
Registered: 2001-06-15
Posts: 4214

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

Is there a single phrase in the English language more ingratiating, more condescending, more oily, more downright annoying, and one that could possibly make a person sound less humble than this? 

Nope :) 

I prefer a simple "I think" or "I believe."  IMHO, like all acronyms, has been used and abused to the point of nonsense.  We don't even all think it means the same thing!  I agree with Ian's initial comment, but I also understand where ElderTurtle is coming from.  Without body language or tone of voice to convey much-needed information in a BBS society, we are forced to rely on these poor substitutes.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to generate more communicative written language - we all have a different mental perspective of the same symbols.  I suppose that what offends or doesn't will depend entirely on who's reading, and when.

Gads, where the heck did all of that come from?  And no, it's not a humble opinion, it's what I think :)

Sorry to bore you all.  I'll slink back to my job now...


Giggling Lady of Doom

 

#16 2001-06-19 10:24:00

Ian Johnson
Pilgrim
Registered: 2001-06-01
Posts: 11635

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

The thing is, it doesn't really do anything to diffuse a situation and it's too late to point out what the intentions behind the "IMHO" were after the other person has exploded. You might say it gives them more fuel to burn, if anything.

And no, it's not a humble opinion, it's what I think :)

*hugs Gigi*

[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: Ian Johnson ]

 

#17 2001-06-19 10:29:00

Pretzalz
Pilgrim
From: USA
Registered: 2001-06-02
Posts: 2161

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

Ah, but the problem with IMO is that is ambiguous how you should pronounce it and makes reading it awkward.  Do you say I-mo or im-O?


Jane: Ohh, you are trying to deal with your loneliness by surrounding yourself with friends, hmm, how's that going to work?

 

#18 2001-06-19 10:33:00

Ian Johnson
Pilgrim
Registered: 2001-06-01
Posts: 11635

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

Pronounce it?

 

#19 2001-06-19 10:36:00

Gigi
Pilgrim
From: dunno
Registered: 2001-06-15
Posts: 4214

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

Well, Pretzalz, I think that's sort of the issue, isn't it?  You don't know how to pronounce it because it's not meant to be spoken, only read. 

So say it however you want to :)

And Ian, play nice!  LOL


Giggling Lady of Doom

 

#20 2001-06-19 10:38:00

Gashweir
Pilgrim
From: Boulder Creek
Registered: 2001-06-05
Posts: 429

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

I am guilty of using the acronym IMHO but I always meant it as "in my Honest opnion", meaning I was being serious, something of a rarity for me


The rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces.  It is not God who kills children.  Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs.  It's us.  Only us.

Rorschach
The Watchmen

 

#21 2001-06-19 10:41:00

Rajan
Pilgrim
From: In between
Registered: 2001-06-02
Posts: 11670
Website

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

Well I must say that I have used the acronym before, though sometimes I mistakenly think that it stands for In My Honest Opinion. I suppose that that's little better since I would hope all of my opinions are honest. I suppose it comes from laziness, though.

I think the difficult thing about communicating in this fashion is that it is so hard to interpret tone from these written words. The same things is a concern where I work where much of the communication is through email. Add to that the fact that you are dealing with people to whom English is a second or third language and it becomes even more difficult. I think that people use those terms to make themselves seem less commanding (this is what I think and I'm right) and more accomodating (this is what I think though you may think differently).

On this site I don't think it's as necessary, but I'm sure in other places, people look at it differently. I agree, though, that when you spell it out it seems silly.

 

#22 2001-06-19 10:43:00

Pretzalz
Pilgrim
From: USA
Registered: 2001-06-02
Posts: 2161

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

lol, but seriously, when I read anything more closely than skimming, I pronounce it to myself in my head.  Does no else do this? More importantly, do people find this wierd(you can come forward if you do, I won't be offended)?  :)


Jane: Ohh, you are trying to deal with your loneliness by surrounding yourself with friends, hmm, how's that going to work?

 

#23 2001-06-19 10:50:00

Jendaiya
Pilgrim
From: Canada
Registered: 2001-06-01
Posts: 21821
Website

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

I find it weird. *grins*  I do pronounce some of them, just not imho. What is really bizarre is when you start to say them out loud IRL.
---

I would like it much better if it would mean 'honest' instead of 'humble'. It seems much more... uh... honest.


Beauty will save the world.

~Prince Myshkin,

The Idiot, by Dostoevsky

 

#24 2001-06-19 10:52:00

Ian Johnson
Pilgrim
Registered: 2001-06-01
Posts: 11635

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

Kehv,

In My Honest Opinion sounds much better because it sounds sincere. The problem with In My Humble Opinion (in England, at least) is that it tends to be used by the middle classes, businessmen, reviewers, politicians and well-meaning young Oxfordians so green you could use them for salad. And it makes them sound about as humble as Nimrod in the process.

Pret,

No, other people do read aloud in their heads. Some people think in words, others in images. I tend to screw up the test at college when I tell them that I get both - like a lot of Aspergers, I see the word inside the image and the image inside the word. You just threw me off-balance when you asked me how to pronounce an abbreviation. I know people who think in words, but it hadn't occured to me that they thought-pronounced everything on the page.

Pronounce it how you like. I hear that some people say ASAP as "assap", but most people I know just say "ay-ess-ay-pee"; "tee-tee-eff-en" for TTFN; etc.

Gigi,

It's no use trying to shake me off. Hugs are compulsary around me. :-)

[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: Ian Johnson ]

 

#25 2001-06-19 10:56:00

Gigi
Pilgrim
From: dunno
Registered: 2001-06-15
Posts: 4214

Re: "In My Humble Opinion"

Ian darling, I wasn't telling you to be nice to ME, it was your previous comment regarding pronunciation...again, not having the ability to interpret tone of voice has slain me!

And *hugs* back :)


Giggling Lady of Doom

 

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