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#1 2017-07-29 14:07:51

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Posts: 23117
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Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Prior to TWC, we knew of just a few types of Tinukeda'ya: Dwarrows, Niskies, and the unnamed "witchwood tenders" (the Tinukeda'ya who tended the witchwood groves below Asu'a, who were all killed when Asu'a fell).

Now there are additional breeds. Lots of them. And we now know they are also called changelings.

The first new group we meet are Pengi, also called Carry-men. Viyeki thinks to himself that the Pengi are animals, though they once could talk:

Viyeki wrote:

Despite the similarity of their faces and shapes to those of mortals, or even to that of the Hikeda'ya themselves, Viyeki could never quite make himself believe that the Pengi, the Tinukeda'ya changelings, were much more than animals. The oldest Builders in his order claimed to recall a time when even the lowest of them could talk, but it was hard to believe that now. And when he looked into the empty, cowlike eyes of the Carry-men standing beside the great capstan as they waited for a command from their overseer, Viyeki found the whole idea even more incomprehensible.

One could believe that Viyeki is a racist for thinking of the Pengi as animals, but Jarnulf thinks the same thing to himself about the giants and Pengi of Nakkiga-That-Was:

Jarnulf wrote:

The giants and the changeling creatures called Pengi seemed little more than animals, and were considered lower even than Jarnulf and his kind,

We get a brief description of the Pengi, and a clue that they are not the only Tinukeda'ya at Nakkiga:

After a long moment's consideration, Viyeki stepped into the mine cart. The dragon-helmed guard entered behind him and closed the barred door, then gave a signal to the overseer of the Carry-men. The huge creatures, only slightly smaller than wild giants, began to crank the capstan.
The massive ropes creaked as the cart shuddered down into the depths, past level after level, each a dark doorway into the roots of the mountain, where Carry-men and other slaves dug for sulfur and gold.

The "other slaves" could be humans, but another passage reveals Tinukeda'ya which are not Pengi:

"Two hundred of my Builders lead the effort, commanding a thousand mortals and almost half that number of Tinukeda'ya -- carry-men, delvers, and others.

Carry-men, delvers, and "others".

Mingling with the hundreds and hundreds of mortals (and the smaller contingent of armed Norn guards keeping watch over the market) were a large number of the only slaves the Norns considered lower than mortal men and women -- the changeling Tinukeda'ya in all their weird variety. There were carry-men, of course, manlike beasts of burden almost as tall as wild giants, with immense, muscular shoulders and tiny, empty-faced heads that showed no alteration of expression even when they stumbled under their monstrous loads. But Tinukeda'ya came in many other shapes as well, from the small, scuttling hairy things that worked on the highest mountainside farms in other parts of the Nornfells to the slender, mournful-faced delvers, who, despite their spindly appearance, could not just dig faster than either humans or Norns but also shape stone with the delicate ease of a man carving soft wood. Tzoja watched a pair of these delvers with bleak amusement as they bargained almost silently with a gem-seller: the owl-eyed creatures' flinching hurry to be out of the sun and back into soothing darkness was an exact opposite of her own desires. But body shape meant nothing, not here: her Norn captors themselves, although more manlike than almost any of the changelings, were as different from Tzoja as a wildcat from a rabbit.

So there are also delvers; they bear some resemblance to the Dwarrows, including being slender and mournful-faced, and they shape stone like the Dwarrows... but they are described as "owl-eyed", like Geloe, rather than the black-eyed dwarrows. So there does seem to be some small difference.

And there are also "small, scuttling hairy things", which are specifically described as Tinukeda'ya.

These creatures bear a great resemblance to the descriptions of Bukken in MS&T, including a passage in TGAT that states that Bukken have "spindly, hairy limbs".

Are the "small, scuttling hairy" Tinukeda'ya actually Bukken? If so, they also called Furi'a. I don't know that I like the bukken being a breed of Tinukeda'ya, since the Tinukeda'ya were described as pacifists in MS&T, and the bukken are the exact opposite, but the text indicates otherwise.


So it seems as though there are at least five breeds of Tinukeda'ya, maybe several more:
Niskies, the Ocean Children
Dwarrows, also called Domhaini, Dvernings (may include delvers)
Delvers (may be Dwarrows with owl-like eyes)
Pengi, also called Carry-men
Furi'a, also called Boghanik, Bukken, or Goblins
"Witchwood tenders" (apparently now extinct)

There may be others. The Lightless Ones could be Tinukeda'ya. And possibly also the kilpa, and the "river man" of Blue Mud Lake and elsewhere, both of which are described as "man-like". And don't tell me there aren't Tinukeda'ya/human hybrids: Riggan the "gnomish fellow", with his huge eyes, seems to confirm that at some point, there's been some hanky-panky between, say, a human and his Niskie fish-wife.

I haven't included the Giants (Hunen) in this list. Viyeki thinks to himself of the "giants and the changeling creatures", indicating or implying that the Hunen are something else. But maybe Viyeki is just wrong; it's not as though he takes any interest in these lowly creatures.

Anyone notice any others?


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#2 2017-07-30 10:35:18

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?


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#3 2017-07-30 15:28:59

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 361

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

I was going to bring up the River Man in the main thread: in the headlong rush that is the final 100+ pages, it seems oddly out of place, in that it seems to set nothing up, more of a fun tangent suited to earlier in the book, but if you take the River Man as a Tinukeda'ya (those creepy human-like "hands") it suddenly makes a lot of sense.

 

#4 2017-07-30 21:42:25

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

ajl3 wrote:

I was going to bring up the River Man in the main thread: in the headlong rush that is the final 100+ pages, it seems oddly out of place, in that it seems to set nothing up, more of a fun tangent suited to earlier in the book, but if you take the River Man as a Tinukeda'ya (those creepy human-like "hands") it suddenly makes a lot of sense.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this!


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#5 2017-07-31 23:47:47

Jeremy_Erman
Pilgrim
From: California
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 262

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

All of the Tinukeda'ya in Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn seem to regard themselves as one people, whatever their appearance: they always call themselves Tinukeda'ya/Navigator's Children/Ruyan's Folk, and the Sithi refer to them this way as well; only humans divide them based on appearance and abilitiies.

But in The Witchwood Crown we see that the Norns still keep Tinukeda'ya enslaved, and I suspect this was another point of contention that led to the parting of the Two Families: the Sithi (or at least Year-Dancing House), considered their subjugation of Ruyan's Folk their greatest shame, but the Norns still see the Tinukeda'ya as animal-like changelings whose abilities they can exploit. I suspect that one reason there are more forms of Tinukeda'ya among the Norns than we have seen elsewhere is that the Norns forced them to change/evolve into forms that could carry out the work the Norns wanted them to do.

But if they consider themselves one people despite their different forms, they could be very powerful if they rose up against the Norns.

 

#6 2017-07-31 23:56:14

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Jeremy_Erman wrote:

All of the Tinukeda'ya in Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn seem to regard themselves as one people, whatever their appearance: they always call themselves Tinukeda'ya/Navigator's Children/Ruyan's Folk, and the Sithi refer to them this way as well; only humans divide them based on appearance and abilitiies.

But in The Witchwood Crown we see that the Norns still keep Tinukeda'ya enslaved, and I suspect this was another point of contention that led to the parting of the Two Families: the Sithi (or at least Year-Dancing House), considered their subjugation of Ruyan's Folk their greatest shame, but the Norns still see the Tinukeda'ya as animal-like changelings whose abilities they can exploit. I suspect that one reason there are more forms of Tinukeda'ya among the Norns than we have seen elsewhere is that the Norns forced them to change/evolve into forms that could carry out the work the Norns wanted them to do.

That is a most excellent theory. It would explain why we see so many varieties of Tinukeda'ya at Nakkiga that we haven't seen elsewhere.

If they were freed, would they gradually go back to being Ocean Children?

But if they consider themselves one people despite their different forms, they could be very powerful if they rose up against the Norns.

I think some already have: the Furi'a freely attacked the Talons, something we never saw in MS&T.


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#7 2017-08-01 00:21:43

Darth_Nerf
Pilgrim
From: Canberra
Registered: 2001-07-26
Posts: 64

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

I don't know that I like the bukken being a breed of Tinukeda'ya, since the Tinukeda'ya were described as pacifists in MS&T, and the bukken are the exact opposite, but the text indicates otherwise.

This is interesting. But the scientist part of you (if I can quote you from your other thread) should rebel against the idea that an underground environment would produce creatures with a human shape. It is however possible (in the fantasy sense) that human-like creatures who went too deep in filth and darkness could end up that way.

For the devolution of bukken you could also lay some blame on another part of their environment... how totally putrid is Norn society! The carry-men have adapted to their environment by becoming mindless. A dehumanising existence could have shaped or corrupted the bukken in a different way before they escaped and became feral.

Last edited by Darth_Nerf (2017-08-01 00:23:29)

 

#8 2017-08-01 00:29:58

ajl3
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Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 361

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Darth_Nerf wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

I don't know that I like the bukken being a breed of Tinukeda'ya, since the Tinukeda'ya were described as pacifists in MS&T, and the bukken are the exact opposite, but the text indicates otherwise.

This is interesting. But the scientist part of you (if I can quote you from your other thread) should rebel against the idea that an underground environment would produce creatures with a human shape. It is however possible (in the fantasy sense) that human-like creatures who went too deep in filth and darkness could end up that way.

For the devolution of bukken you could also lay some blame on another part of their environment... how totally putrid is Norn society! The carry-men have adapted to their environment by becoming mindless. A dehumanising existence could have shaped or corrupted the bukken in a different way before they escaped and became feral.

I thought there were also hints that Ineluki crafting the sword somehow corrupted all of them (they could feel its creation, etc.), potentially driving some feral?

I would also think "pacifist" is not something necessarily inherent. Simon and Miri get some to pick up rocks in TGAT to defend themselves. It's also quite likely that in any situation like that the pacifism thing is something the Sithi/Norns would have encouraged or introduced to them to keep them docile, easy to use slaves.

 

#9 2017-08-01 00:33:30

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Darth_Nerf wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

I don't know that I like the bukken being a breed of Tinukeda'ya, since the Tinukeda'ya were described as pacifists in MS&T, and the bukken are the exact opposite, but the text indicates otherwise.

This is interesting. But the scientist part of you (if I can quote you from your other thread) should rebel against the idea that an underground environment would produce creatures with a human shape. It is however possible (in the fantasy sense) that human-like creatures who went too deep in filth and darkness could end up that way.

I can believe that a humanoid race could devolve into creatures with big eyes and claw-like hands, over centuries. But to turn completely into bugs? It strains credulity.

For the devolution of bukken you could also lay some blame on another part of their environment... how totally putrid is Norn society! The carry-men have adapted to their environment by becoming mindless. A dehumanising existence could have shaped or corrupted the bukken in a different way before they escaped and became feral.

What you say makes some sense. I suppose being beaten, locked away in the dark, etc, might cause some people to become enraged. Sad, though! Ruyan's folk were peace-loving.


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#10 2017-08-01 00:38:24

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

ajl3 wrote:

I thought there were also hints that Ineluki crafting the sword somehow corrupted all of them (they could feel its creation, etc.), potentially driving some feral?

The text does say that the creation of Jingizu diminished the Tinukeda'ya. It's sort of unclear what exactly he means. To a peaceful folk, embracing violence might mean 'diminished'.

I would also think "pacifist" is not something necessarily inherent. Simon and Miri get some to pick up rocks in TGAT to defend themselves.

I think the dwarrows felt it was inherent to them. They did pick up rocks to defend themselves, but only reluctantly. And only because otherwise they would die.

It's also quite likely that in any situation like that the pacifism thing is something the Sithi/Norns would have encouraged or introduced to them to keep them docile, easy to use slaves.

Yis-fidri actually even says this.


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#11 2017-08-01 00:38:58

Darth_Nerf
Pilgrim
From: Canberra
Registered: 2001-07-26
Posts: 64

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

For the devolution of bukken you could also lay some blame on another part of their environment... how totally putrid is Norn society! The carry-men have adapted to their environment by becoming mindless. A dehumanising existence could have shaped or corrupted the bukken in a different way before they escaped and became feral.

What you say makes some sense. I suppose being beaten, locked away in the dark, etc, might cause some people to become enraged. Sad, though! Ruyan's folk were peace-loving.

Yeah. But of course Kilpa are also very different from Niskies. Being changeable seems to be the fundamental quality of Ruyan's people.

 

#12 2017-08-01 00:52:53

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 361

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Do we want to talk about *how* the Sithi/Norns/Tinukeda'ya could be "related"? I always wondered if the Norn/Sithi were some group of Tinukeda'ya who lost their changing ability for the most part and were so numberful that they took over: I say for the most part, because the Norn and Sithi have Lamarkian biology and are able to adapt slowly along their bloodlines.

They probably considered themselves superior due to their more "beautiful" forms and turned on the Tinukeda'ya to the point of naming them a sub-species of their race instead of just one of their race.

Of course, that's just a theory.

 

#13 2017-08-01 00:54:00

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Darth_Nerf wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

For the devolution of bukken you could also lay some blame on another part of their environment... how totally putrid is Norn society! The carry-men have adapted to their environment by becoming mindless. A dehumanising existence could have shaped or corrupted the bukken in a different way before they escaped and became feral.

What you say makes some sense. I suppose being beaten, locked away in the dark, etc, might cause some people to become enraged. Sad, though! Ruyan's folk were peace-loving.

Yeah. But of course Kilpa are also very different from Niskies. Being changeable seems to be the fundamental quality of Ruyan's people.

Yep!


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#14 2017-08-15 11:29:42

kragadox
Pilgrim
From: California
Registered: 2014-05-10
Posts: 152

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

So there are also delvers; they bear some resemblance to the Dwarrows, including being slender and mournful-faced, and they shape stone like the Dwarrows... but they are described as "owl-eyed", like Geloe, rather than the black-eyed dwarrows. So there does seem to be some small difference.

In SOF, the dwarrows are described thus:

SOF wrote:

It was their eyes that seemed so strange at first, great round eyes with no whites.

TW also describes their eyes like that when Miriamele meets up with the dwarrows under Asu'a later in TGAT.

Lastly, in the synopsis of SOF at the beginning of TGAT, the dwarrows are described thus: 

TGAT wrote:

...the only inhabitants they discover in the crumbling city are the dwarrows, a strange, timid group of delvers distantly related to the immortals.

The dwarrows are actually referred to as delvers.  I think they are one and the same.  Even though they are described as "owl-eyed" in TWC, I think that is more pertaining to the size and shape of their eyes instead of the color.  Also, many species of owls have dark eyes.  Google tawny owls or spotted owls or barred owls, for examples.

In SOF, Yis-fidri states that the dwarrows of Hikehikayo (a city given to the dwarrows by the Sithi as I recall) fled that city.  Later, the Norns communicated with the dwarrows of Mezutua from the Witness in Hikehikayo.  It seems likely to me that the dwarrows of Hikehikayo could have been captured by the Norns and enslaved in Nakkiga.  That's not to say that the dwarrows in Nakkiga aren't part of a population that has been enslaved by the Norns for many years.  Maybe the Hikehikayo dwarrows were able to get away.

In any case, the Tinukeda'ya seem to be a marginalized and exploited race of peoples.

 

#15 2017-08-15 14:44:00

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

kragadox wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

So there are also delvers; they bear some resemblance to the Dwarrows, including being slender and mournful-faced, and they shape stone like the Dwarrows... but they are described as "owl-eyed", like Geloe, rather than the black-eyed dwarrows. So there does seem to be some small difference.

In SOF, the dwarrows are described thus:

SOF wrote:

It was their eyes that seemed so strange at first, great round eyes with no whites.

TW also describes their eyes like that when Miriamele meets up with the dwarrows under Asu'a later in TGAT.

Lastly, in the synopsis of SOF at the beginning of TGAT, the dwarrows are described thus: 

TGAT wrote:

...the only inhabitants they discover in the crumbling city are the dwarrows, a strange, timid group of delvers distantly related to the immortals.

The dwarrows are actually referred to as delvers.  I think they are one and the same.  Even though they are described as "owl-eyed" in TWC, I think that is more pertaining to the size and shape of their eyes instead of the color.  Also, many species of owls have dark eyes.  Google tawny owls or spotted owls or barred owls, for examples.

Some images of tawny owls seem to show dark but clearly visible blown irises. Still, the fact that the word delvers is used in connotation with the Dwarrows in MS&T convinces me: they do appear to be one and the same.

In SOF, Yis-fidri states that the dwarrows of Hikehikayo (a city given to the dwarrows by the Sithi as I recall) fled that city.  Later, the Norns communicated with the dwarrows of Mezutua from the Witness in Hikehikayo.  It seems likely to me that the dwarrows of Hikehikayo could have been captured by the Norns and enslaved in Nakkiga.

I have long suspected that the dwarrows of Hikehikayo were captured by the Norns; Yis-fidri even says he fears that's what happened. And Hikehikayo is very close to Nakkiga. So they could be among the slaves at Nakkiga.

That's not to say that the dwarrows in Nakkiga aren't part of a population that has been enslaved by the Norns for many years.  Maybe the Hikehikayo dwarrows were able to get away.

In any case, the Tinukeda'ya seem to be a marginalized and exploited race of peoples.

Definitely. What do you make of the other creatures mentioned in TWC? Tinukeda'ya? Or unrelated?


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#16 2017-08-15 14:55:25

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

ajl3 wrote:

Do we want to talk about *how* the Sithi/Norns/Tinukeda'ya could be "related"?

Woops! Missed this because we were posting at nearly the same time. Sorry, Ajl3!

I always wondered if the Norn/Sithi were some group of Tinukeda'ya who lost their changing ability for the most part and were so numberful that they took over: I say for the most part, because the Norn and Sithi have Lamarkian biology and are able to adapt slowly along their bloodlines.

They probably considered themselves superior due to their more "beautiful" forms and turned on the Tinukeda'ya to the point of naming them a sub-species of their race instead of just one of their race.

Of course, that's just a theory.

Clearly, the Sithi and Norns and Tinukeda'ya have some relation; they are called "distantly related", 'cousins', etc. They come from the same continent/island/world.

Some kinder Sithi, like Jiriki, consider the Tinukeda'ya as cousins. But the Norns in Nakkiga consider the Tinukeda'ya to be even less than humans: animals at the Animal Market. (And some of the Tinukeda'ya do appear to be little more than animals, if the Furi'a are indeed Bukken.) Still, I hate to see the kindly dwarrows and Niskies treated so badly.

I think it's likely as you say: the Keida'ya had more "beautiful" forms, and thus considered themselves "higher".


Question for all: Do you think the Dwarrows can "sing the Bukken down"?


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#17 2017-08-15 15:34:43

kragadox
Pilgrim
From: California
Registered: 2014-05-10
Posts: 152

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

What do you make of the other creatures mentioned in TWC? Tinukeda'ya? Or unrelated?

I think they are Tinukeda'ya.  This is puzzling from an evolutionary/biological perspective.  The Tinukeda'ya seem to have subspecies.  But each subspecies hardly resembles the other.  They are super variable.  From the hairy crawling things in Nakkiga to the carry men. 

And then there was Geloe.  Was she of the Witchwood tender tribe?  I think that was suggested once.

And ghants?  It seems like only the dwarrows, Niskies, and Witchwood tenders are/were peaceful.  The diggers, giants, kilpa, ghants, River men all seem aggressive.

 

#18 2017-08-15 15:38:57

kragadox
Pilgrim
From: California
Registered: 2014-05-10
Posts: 152

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Question for all: Do you think the Dwarrows can "sing the Bukken down"?

Maybe.  But it seemed like the Norns sung them up at Naglimund.  Not sure if they were sung up on the Frostmarch when Duke Isgrimnur's men were attacked while camping in DBC.  Somehow they were summoned during Skodi's ceremony in SOF.  And it seems like their default is to attack anything that moves.  The only time that it seemed otherwise was at Naglimund where they attacked the human defenders but not the Norn attackers.  I think when the giant fell into their nest in TWC, they were just maddened and attacked indiscriminately.

 

#19 2017-08-15 22:47:43

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

kragadox wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

What do you make of the other creatures mentioned in TWC? Tinukeda'ya? Or unrelated?

I think they are Tinukeda'ya.  This is puzzling from an evolutionary/biological perspective.  The Tinukeda'ya seem to have subspecies.  But each subspecies hardly resembles the other.  They are super variable.  From the hairy crawling things in Nakkiga to the carry men. 

And then there was Geloe.  Was she of the Witchwood tender tribe?  I think that was suggested once.

If it was suggested, it was suggested so lightly that it might not be a suggestion at all. It's mentioned that the Witchwood tenders died when Asu'a fell. It's Geloe who points this out. She says they tended the Witchwood groves below Asu'a. Then, later, she goes off to die in her beloved forest, where she had lived amongst her beloved trees for countless decades.

And ghants?  It seems like only the dwarrows, Niskies, and Witchwood tenders are/were peaceful.  The diggers, giants, kilpa, ghants, River men all seem aggressive.

I haven't included the giants and ghants; the ghants just seem too far removed from humanoid shapes, and Viyeki actually thinks to himself of "Tinukeda'ya and giants", which indicates that giants are something else, not Tinukeda'ya.

Plus, the Sithi hunted Hunen in MS&T. If the Hunen are Tinukeda'ya, what does that say about Sitho-Tinukeda'yan relations?


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#20 2017-08-15 22:51:09

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

kragadox wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Question for all: Do you think the Dwarrows can "sing the Bukken down"?

Maybe.  But it seemed like the Norns sung them up at Naglimund.  Not sure if they were sung up on the Frostmarch when Duke Isgrimnur's men were attacked while camping in DBC.  Somehow they were summoned during Skodi's ceremony in SOF.  And it seems like their default is to attack anything that moves.  The only time that it seemed otherwise was at Naglimund where they attacked the human defenders but not the Norn attackers.  I think when the giant fell into their nest in TWC, they were just maddened and attacked indiscriminately.

You could be right. Shouldn't a Singer know, though, how to sing them into passivity? I don't understand how that was not an option. As you correctly point out, the Norns could control the Bukken in MS&T.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#21 2017-08-16 18:24:06

Jeremy_Erman
Pilgrim
From: California
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 262

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Just wanted to point out that some Tinukeda'ya look perfectly human: Morgenes and Geloe appear to be examples of this.

Didn't it say somewhere that Geloe lived in Rimmersgard at some point, which is why she was called a valada?

 

#22 2017-08-16 20:54:56

Outsider
Pilgrim
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2008-04-29
Posts: 177
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Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Wait, Morgenes was a Tinukeda'ya?! How did I miss this?


"A witty saying proves nothing." -- Voltaire
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#23 2017-08-16 21:25:38

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 361

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Jeremy_Erman wrote:

Just wanted to point out that some Tinukeda'ya look perfectly human: Morgenes and Geloe appear to be examples of this.

Didn't it say somewhere that Geloe lived in Rimmersgard at some point, which is why she was called a valada?

I think I recall Geloe living among men, but growing tired of them and retreating to the forest. She's special, though: directly related to Ruyan and a shape changer. It might explain how she knows Lady Faiera, if she was basically a hermit closer to the end of her life. (I also hypothesized that, given the name, this Lady Faiera may end up being another of Ruyan's Own, living among men - i.e., she could disguise her eyes if she needed to go out, as a shape changer.)

I've never thought of Morgenes being a Tinukeda'ya. Do you have any evidence for that?

 

#24 2017-08-16 22:23:04

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
Website

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

I don't think Morgenes is a Tinukeda'ya; he's repeatedly called an "old man", and he even refers to himself, by implication, as a mortal, in his own book, The Life and Reign of King John Presbyter: "Still, it is the field of war that determines those things that God has forgotten -- accidentally or not, what mortal can know?--". Plus, in SoF, Aditu states that she met Morgenes when he was a "pretty young man." She's only a few hundred years old herself.

But it's a pretty good crackpot theory.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#25 2017-08-16 22:25:05

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
Website

Re: Ruyan's myriad folk *TWC spoilers*

Jeremy_Erman wrote:

Didn't it say somewhere that Geloe lived in Rimmersgard at some point, which is why she was called a valada?

Yes, it does say Geloe lived in Rimmersgard. The name Valada comes from there.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

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