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  •  » Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

#26 2017-08-01 14:51:15

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

ajl3 wrote:

Ruyan and his bloodline sound like they must be very "high up" Tinukeda'ya, possibly all shape-changers like Geloe who can change form in mere instants. Very much like the "nobility" in Shadowmarch. Maybe even some sort of origin-of-the-race, like the Norns believe Utuk'ku to be for themselves?

Yes. He's definitely described as the patriarch of his people.

I wonder, though, if the Bukken and other "lower" Tinukeda'ya even know of him. The Bukken are described as "chittering". Do they have a real language? Does "chittering" count? Have they lamarcked themselves so far down the path that they've lost all trace of their... I was going to say 'humanity', but that's not right... Tinukeda'ya-ness?

Ruyan Ve's armor is at Naglimund, at Slave Hold (BTW, what does that mean? The place where the Tinukeda'ya once had power?). One wonders where Ruyan Ve himself is buried, if indeed he was interred at all.

Oh, thank God I wasn't the only one who read the "Slave Hold" line and couldn't understand it and thought I had missed something huge in TWC or MST entirely. Maybe this is the "City that never was" from Alva's prophecy dream, then. Checking the book again, we don't get much beyond "Slave Hold" and the descriptor "infamous" (along with, I guess, "what the mortals now call" line).

Last edited by ajl3 (2017-08-01 14:51:35)

 

#27 2017-08-01 15:04:16

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23099
Website

Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

ajl3 wrote:

Oh, thank God I wasn't the only one who read the "Slave Hold" line and couldn't understand it and thought I had missed something huge in TWC or MST entirely.

No, in MS&T Naglimund is called "Trap that captures the hunter" by the Sithi. It was never called Slave Hold in MS&T. It sounds as though Ruyan Ve's place of power was there... but why there, instead of by the sea? And why there, instead of the three cities granted to the Tinukeda'ya by Jenjiyana?

Maybe this is the "City that never was" from Alva's prophecy dream, then. Checking the book again, we don't get much beyond "Slave Hold" and the descriptor "infamous" (along with, I guess, "what the mortals now call" line).

Alva's dream seemed to concern the Sithi and Norns more than the Tinukeda'ya, but you could be right. Maybe Ruyan Ve once hoped to gather free-thinking Gardenborn under him. Maybe this place, derisively called Slave Hold by the Norns, didn't last when Ruyan Ve was killed over the price of Minneyar.

But no! I'm forgetting the timeline! The Nabbanai already held Naglimund when the northmen invaded. Hmmm... This will require more thought.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#28 2017-08-01 15:49:13

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

ajl3 wrote:

Oh, thank God I wasn't the only one who read the "Slave Hold" line and couldn't understand it and thought I had missed something huge in TWC or MST entirely.

No, in MS&T Naglimund is called "Trap that captures the hunter" by the Sithi. It was never called Slave Hold in MS&T. It sounds as though Ruyan Ve's place of power was there... but why there, instead of by the sea? And why there, instead of the three cities granted to the Tinukeda'ya by Jenjiyana?

Maybe this is the "City that never was" from Alva's prophecy dream, then. Checking the book again, we don't get much beyond "Slave Hold" and the descriptor "infamous" (along with, I guess, "what the mortals now call" line).

Alva's dream seemed to concern the Sithi and Norns more than the Tinukeda'ya, but you could be right. Maybe Ruyan Ve once hoped to gather free-thinking Gardenborn under him. Maybe this place, derisively called Slave Hold by the Norns, didn't last when Ruyan Ve was killed over the price of Minneyar.

But no! I'm forgetting the timeline! The Nabbanai already held Naglimund when the northmen invaded. Hmmm... This will require more thought.

Now that I think about it this might be simpler than I thought: a hold can also be a fortress and the Norns don't seem to even consider Tinukeda'ya slaves but animals. So they're mockingly calling it a Slave Hold because mortals, who they consider slaves, own it. Infamous because two big key battles were fought there.

Last edited by ajl3 (2017-08-01 15:50:08)

 

#29 2017-08-01 18:07:17

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23099
Website

Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

ajl3 wrote:

Now that I think about it this might be simpler than I thought: a hold can also be a fortress and the Norns don't seem to even consider Tinukeda'ya slaves but animals. So they're mockingly calling it a Slave Hold because mortals, who they consider slaves, own it. Infamous because two big key battles were fought there.

You could be right!

...But if they call it Slave Hold because it's held by humans, what do they call Elvritshalla and Naarved? What do they call Kaldskryke and Skoggey? They can't call all human settlements in the north "Slave Hold", can they? That would be very confusing.

No, I suspect it's because the Tinukeda'ya once held it. Slaves, not "Rockworms" (TGAT).


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#30 2017-08-02 13:53:48

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

ajl3 wrote:

Now that I think about it this might be simpler than I thought: a hold can also be a fortress and the Norns don't seem to even consider Tinukeda'ya slaves but animals. So they're mockingly calling it a Slave Hold because mortals, who they consider slaves, own it. Infamous because two big key battles were fought there.

You could be right!

...But if they call it Slave Hold because it's held by humans, what do they call Elvritshalla and Naarved? What do they call Kaldskryke and Skoggey? They can't call all human settlements in the north "Slave Hold", can they? That would be very confusing.

No, I suspect it's because the Tinukeda'ya once held it. Slaves, not "Rockworms" (TGAT).

Slave Hold would just be a mocking term that could be used in general. They have no problem calling it Naglimund when they get down to it.

I don't think the "Rockworms" slang gets used at all in TWC, but they do call them "slaves" or "animals" plenty. I doubt they would even consider the Tinukeda'ya slaves - they're mindless beasts to them, lower than even mortals.

 

#31 2017-08-02 17:47:35

Ad1tu
Pilgrim
From: Buffysadharc
Registered: 2004-02-22
Posts: 6325

Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Ugh, I can't find the discussion that recently took place about the history of Naglimund. It was built by humans, right? So why even would Ruyan Ve's armor be there? (This is probably more appropriate for the TWC official discussion thread, but I thought of it here...)

Aditu was always a bit adventurous around Simon, what with kissing him and all. Maybe there's some other young Sithi that doesn't understand social norms, and thinks face-feeling is appropriate, lol. And do we know for sure it's a creature? Maybe it's a vine or stick that'll cause Morgan to be distracted so someone can sneak up on him from the other direction.

Alternatively, I think I'm really pulling for the forest Tinukeda'ya theory. That could be cool!


If you should do what makes you happy, and no one can tell you what makes you happy, then that means no one can tell you what to do!

Tamishu's Ramblings

 

#32 2017-08-02 20:10:27

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Ad1tu wrote:

Ugh, I can't find the discussion that recently took place about the history of Naglimund. It was built by humans, right? So why even would Ruyan Ve's armor be there? (This is probably more appropriate for the TWC official discussion thread, but I thought of it here...)

Aditu was always a bit adventurous around Simon, what with kissing him and all. Maybe there's some other young Sithi that doesn't understand social norms, and thinks face-feeling is appropriate, lol. And do we know for sure it's a creature? Maybe it's a vine or stick that'll cause Morgan to be distracted so someone can sneak up on him from the other direction.

Alternatively, I think I'm really pulling for the forest Tinukeda'ya theory. That could be cool!

Naglimund was built by humans; they need to excavate deep down beneath the fort itself. It stands to reason that if dwarrows can build places under the Hernistyr, etc., they may have places everywhere.

 

#33 2017-08-03 14:40:54

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23099
Website

Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Ad1tu wrote:

Aditu was always a bit adventurous around Simon, what with kissing him and all. Maybe there's some other young Sithi that doesn't understand social norms, and thinks face-feeling is appropriate, lol.

Bwah!

"What? Humans don't like their faces to be touched by random strangers with cold hands? I will never understand mortals."

;)


And do we know for sure it's a creature? Maybe it's a vine or stick that'll cause Morgan to be distracted so someone can sneak up on him from the other direction.

No, it says originally, Morgan thought it was an inanimate thing, then realized it was something else, with long, cold, small fingers.

Alternatively, I think I'm really pulling for the forest Tinukeda'ya theory. That could be cool!

I want Morgan to be served a meal like what Yis-fidri and Yis-hadra fed Maegwin and Eolair! ;)


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#34 2017-08-03 14:42:52

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23099
Website

Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

ajl3 wrote:

Ad1tu wrote:

Ugh, I can't find the discussion that recently took place about the history of Naglimund. It was built by humans, right? So why even would Ruyan Ve's armor be there? (This is probably more appropriate for the TWC official discussion thread, but I thought of it here...)

Aditu was always a bit adventurous around Simon, what with kissing him and all. Maybe there's some other young Sithi that doesn't understand social norms, and thinks face-feeling is appropriate, lol. And do we know for sure it's a creature? Maybe it's a vine or stick that'll cause Morgan to be distracted so someone can sneak up on him from the other direction.

Alternatively, I think I'm really pulling for the forest Tinukeda'ya theory. That could be cool!

Naglimund was built by humans; they need to excavate deep down beneath the fort itself. It stands to reason that if dwarrows can build places under the Hernistyr, etc., they may have places everywhere.

I agree. In fact, if the Furi'a/Bukken are indeed Tinukeda'ya, Osten Ard is littered with tunnels.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 
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