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  •  » Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

#1 2017-07-29 13:02:42

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Tad in TWC wrote:

Something brushed the back of his neck and the side of his face -- a branch or some leaves. It happened again, and he was about to reach up and push it away when he realized by its movement that it was not leaves or twigs but something altogether different, something alive. He went deadly still, fearing some venomous thing, spider or serpent. When he realized it was neither his heart did not slow, but began to race even faster, rattling like the nightjar's call.

A hand was gently exploring his goose-pimpling skin—a hand with long, tickling fingers so thin and so cold they might have belonged to a starveling child.

So ends Morgan's final chapter.

Who the heck is this person touching Morgan with long, thin, cold fingers? I asked before, in the other thread, but didn't get any responses.

I think it's a Dwarrow, or a forest Tinukeda'ya we haven't met before. Several times in TWC, the Sithi's fingers are referred to as "long" and thin. I recall that the Dwarrows are even spindlier.  Yis-fidri's fingers are specifically described as "long" in SOF, when Eolair and Maegwin first meet him. It doesn't have to be Yis-fidri, but it could be one of his companions.

Are there any alternate theories?


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#2 2017-07-29 13:33:55

Kenan
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

I found these in DBC

Rachel the dragon is said to be bony-fingered
Josua lackhand is described as slim-fingered, and long-fingered
Count Breyugar has a long-fingered hand
Pryrates is described as long-fingered
Jarnauga is described as having slender fingers
Strangeyard is described as having skinny fingers
Maegwin has a long-fingered hand
A sitha is described as having slender fingers
Jiriki is described as having long-jointed fingers, and then a long-fingered hand, and long fingers
A Bukken has long-fingered hand

Cadrach on the other hand is described as thick-fingered


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#3 2017-07-29 13:50:05

Kenan
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

SoF

A Norn is described as having spidery fingers (oooo)
Tiamak has slender fingers, and long fingers
Towser has clawed fingers
Brother Septes has thin fingers
Yis-Fidri is described as having long fingers, and spoon-shaped fingers *guffaw* maybe it was the hand that was shaped like a spoon?
A group of dwarrows are described as having thin fingers
Yis-Hadra has long fingers
Aditu has slender fingers
Amerasu has a long-fingered hand, and slim fingers
Aspitis has strong fingers

A Qanuc woman has diminutive fingers, strong fingers
A Qanuc man has small, thick fingers, and stubby fingers
Count Streawe has a crabbed finger (or is that just a gesture he makes with the finger?)
Skodi has plump fingers
Vren has small fingers

(I think Tad must have an index of characters' fingers somewhere)


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#4 2017-07-29 14:15:22

Kenan
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

TGAT

A Niskie is described as having lomg, leathery fingers, and nimble and brown fingers
Aspitis fingers are described as long
A Kilpa is described as having long fingers, a web-fingered hand
Utuk'ku is described as long-fingered
Vorzheva is described as having long fingers
Cadrach is described as long-fingered, and has callused fingers
Aditu's fingers are described as supple
Xannasavin is described as having long fingers
Born-Beneath-Tzaaihta's-Stone has long, slender fingers
Eneppa has gnarled fingers
Kuroyi has a long-fingered hand
A Norn woman is described as having bony fingers
Inch is described as having thick fingers
Yis-fidri has thin fingers, spidery fingers
Kira-athu has slender fingers
Yis-hadra has wide fingers


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#5 2017-07-29 15:35:35

ajl3
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

I think you're right, it sounds like a dwarrow or other Tinukeda'ya. In fact, in TWC Speculation Thread 1, there's a list of characters Tad gave out and the name "Khibi-Ya" is the only I can't find or find an equivalent to. That sounds like a dwarrow name to me, possibly female.

I'm guessing their intro to each other was trimmed out since it would be unnecessary - better to end on a decent cliffhanger and start book 2 with the character's intro when it's immediately relevant instead of spending several precious pages introducing a new character of a "new" race (i.e., we haven't had a named Tinukeda'ya in TWC yet) only to end right there.

Last edited by ajl3 (2017-07-29 15:39:15)

 

#6 2017-07-29 15:56:54

Kenan
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

From my list I kind of like Josua as an alternative, though it's a bit hard to see him as 75 year old climbing a tree, with one hand.


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#7 2017-07-29 18:35:35

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Bravo, Kenan! GREAT research!

But we need to check the rest of the Osties, as well!

TBM:

Godric has several missing fingers
Hakatri has long-fingered hands


HOWWL:

A dead child in Rimmersgard has blue-gray fingers
Yaarike has long fingers
Yeyano's sigil is the Pointing Finger
Endri's zombie has dead fingers


TWC:

Bur Yok Kar has fingers which are each as wide as the shaft of a spear
Nezeru has fingers as long as a boar's tusks (actually vice versa)
Makho has long, pale fingers
The first joint of Morgan's fingers are as long as a house-nail (actually vice versa)
Begga has cool fingers
Idela has cool fingers
Miriamele's hands are red and cold
Geloe had dirty fingernails
St. Vultinia's fingers were chopped off
Goh Gam Gar has leathery hands that are dark brown, with forefingers as thick as Nezeru's arms
Morgan has cold fingers
Miriamele's fingers are cool and soothing
Goh Gam Gar has a clawed finger
Lillia has slender fingers
Tanahaya has long fingers
Tanahaya has slender fingers
Binabik has small, thick fingers
Jijibo has bony fingers
Khimabu has long fingers
Zhakar has calloused fingers
Qina has strong, little fingers
A "river man" has wide, flat human-like fingers
Yeja'aro has thin, long-fingered hands
Trees in Aldheorte have twiggy fingers as Morgan brushes past them
Makho has long white fingers
Valada Roskva had thick, deft fingers
Goh Gam Gar has a broken finger


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#8 2017-07-29 19:19:18

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

So, based on the detailed finger-length research, I think we can safely eliminate the following: Aspitis, random Qanuc man, random Qanuc woman, Skodi, Eneppa, Inch, Goh Gam Gar, Bur Yak Kar, Binabik, Qina, Zhakar, the "river man", random Aldheorte trees, Valada Roskva, Cadrach, Towser, the kilpa, and St. Vultinia.

Josua and Godric have a lower probability due to having some missing digits. Plus, Godric has been dead for 300+ years.


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#9 2017-07-29 19:32:14

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

ajl3 wrote:

I think you're right, it sounds like a dwarrow or other Tinukeda'ya. In fact, in TWC Speculation Thread 1, there's a list of characters Tad gave out and the name "Khibi-Ya" is the only I can't find or find an equivalent to. That sounds like a dwarrow name to me, possibly female.

Good catch! It does seem like a dwarrow name to me, too: not too different than the form used for other dwarrows, like Sho-vennae and Imai-an.


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#10 2017-07-29 20:33:19

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Kenan wrote:

Yis-Fidri is described as having long fingers, and spoon-shaped fingers *guffaw* maybe it was the hand that was shaped like a spoon?

Maybe. But nail clubbing, where the nails begin to look like spoons, is common among humans with iron disorders (too much or too little). The dwarrows, who worked with iron a lot, might end up with bulbous fingers.

(I think Tad must have an index of characters' fingers somewhere)

Bwahaha! I believe so, after going through TWC, HOWWL and TBM. The number of times fingers are mentioned in TWC is crazy!


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#11 2017-07-30 06:04:22

Diorna
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

I also thought of the Tinukeda'ya.
I would love to see a new variety of them, tree huggers or something.

On a sidenote: I found Geloes dirty fingernails quite disturbing. Haveing a lot to do and being a practical no-nonsense-woman, okay, but she is a healer! Somehow I always imagined her with those clean, short-nailed, wrinkled but smooth and well-cared-for hands like my grandmothers'. I'm a little sad to let that go.

 

#12 2017-07-30 09:53:13

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Diorna wrote:

I also thought of the Tinukeda'ya.
I would love to see a new variety of them, tree huggers or something.

I'd love to see that, too.

On a sidenote: I found Geloes dirty fingernails quite disturbing. Haveing a lot to do and being a practical no-nonsense-woman, okay, but she is a healer! Somehow I always imagined her with those clean, short-nailed, wrinkled but smooth and well-cared-for hands like my grandmothers'. I'm a little sad to let that go.

Maybe she just had dirty fingernails on the day they met. She'd been digging for herbal roots, and hadn't had a chance to wash up yet, and scrape under her nails.


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#13 2017-07-30 15:06:58

ajl3
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Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 361

Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

ajl3 wrote:

I think you're right, it sounds like a dwarrow or other Tinukeda'ya. In fact, in TWC Speculation Thread 1, there's a list of characters Tad gave out and the name "Khibi-Ya" is the only I can't find or find an equivalent to. That sounds like a dwarrow name to me, possibly female.

Good catch! It does seem like a dwarrow name to me, too: not too different than the form used for other dwarrows, like Sho-vennae and Imai-an.

Of course, the speculation thread guessed that Viyeki was female and Makho a Rimmerman, so maybe I'm far off.

 

#14 2017-07-30 17:00:00

JustCharlotte
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From: New Zealand
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

My guess: most likely one of the Tinukeda'ya, perhaps those that (might have) escaped from Asu'a/The Hayholt after Green Angel Tower fell 35 years ago.

My crackpot guess: Likimeya, who just having had a meeting of the minds with Morgan, has shucked off her cobwebs and followed him through the forest in a sleepy haze of fascination....

 

#15 2017-07-30 21:38:40

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

JustCharlotte wrote:

My guess: most likely one of the Tinukeda'ya, perhaps those that (might have) escaped from Asu'a/The Hayholt after Green Angel Tower fell 35 years ago.

I think so, too!

My crackpot guess: Likimeya, who just having had a meeting of the minds with Morgan, has shucked off her cobwebs and followed him through the forest in a sleepy haze of fascination....

Haha!


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#16 2017-07-31 22:55:09

Darth_Nerf
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From: Canberra
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Who the heck is this person touching Morgan with long, thin, cold fingers? I asked before, in the other thread, but didn't get any responses.

I think it's a Dwarrow, or a forest Tinukeda'ya we haven't met before. Several times in TWC, the Sithi's fingers are referred to as "long" and thin. I recall that the Dwarrows are even spindlier.  Yis-fidri's fingers are specifically described as "long" in SOF, when Eolair and Maegwin first meet him. It doesn't have to be Yis-fidri, but it could be one of his companions.

Are there any alternate theories?

I am sure it is a forest Tinukeda'ya too. The shapechangers align to certain elements (Niskies to water, Dwarrows to stone). It makes intuitive sense that there could be a forest version as well. Also, lost-hero-meets-quirky-travelling-companion is a trope in all Tad's books and I am sure that is what is being set up here.

Here's an extra crazy theory - it's strongly implied that Tinukeda'ya can go too deep in their elements and lose themselves (the water ones becoming Kilpa, the stone ones becoming Bukken). We also know the "shallow" and "deep" versions of Tinukeda'ya can still communicate on some level, because Niskies sing to the Kilpa. The obvious crazy theory there is that the "deep" forest Tinukeda'ya are the ghants, and if that's true, the other versions might have some physical elements in common. Do ghants have long spindly limbs? (That's a genuine question; I don't have my MS&T books handy).

 

#17 2017-07-31 23:36:48

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Welcome back, Darth Nerf! (Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back!)

Darth_Nerf wrote:

I am sure it is a forest Tinukeda'ya too. The shapechangers align to certain elements (Niskies to water, Dwarrows to stone). It makes intuitive sense that there could be a forest version as well. Also, lost-hero-meets-quirky-travelling-companion is a trope in all Tad's books and I am sure that is what is being set up here.

That's a great point about the lost hero always running into a quirky traveling companion. Certainly, throughout MS&T: Simon with Binabik, Simon with Aditu, Eolair/Maegwin with the dwarrows, Miriamele with the dwarrows, etc. And in Shadowmarch: Barrick with Skurn, etc. And in Otherland: Renie with Emily, Renie with the Kitchen characters, Paul with the bird woman, etc.

Here's an extra crazy theory - it's strongly implied that Tinukeda'ya can go too deep in their elements and lose themselves (the water ones becoming Kilpa, the stone ones becoming Bukken). We also know the "shallow" and "deep" versions of Tinukeda'ya can still communicate on some level, because Niskies sing to the Kilpa.

I, too, am an adherent of the Kilpa Theory, though it's not canonical so far. There's a list of different types of Tinukeda'ya here, and we've tentatively included them in the discussion. Adding in the "River Man" with the human-like fingers, Pengi, delvers, witchwood tenders, human/Tinukeda'ya hybrids, bukken/furia, and possibly also the Lightless Ones, it seems as though there may be as many as ten or more types of Tinukeda'ya. And we haven't even reached the book called The Navigator's Children yet!

The obvious crazy theory there is that the "deep" forest Tinukeda'ya are the ghants, and if that's true, the other versions might have some physical elements in common. Do ghants have long spindly limbs? (That's a genuine question; I don't have my MS&T books handy).

They have clawed legs (source: TGAT). I hope the ghants aren't Tinukeda'ya. It just seems like too big a leap. Man-like creatures, sure. But bugs? The scientist part of me is highly skeptical.


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#18 2017-08-01 00:05:59

Darth_Nerf
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From: Canberra
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Welcome back, Darth Nerf!

Thanks! I remember reading your posts from near 15 years ago. It's been a while but this is a memorable message board.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

They have clawed legs (source: TGAT). I hope the ghants aren't Tinukeda'ya. It just seems like too big a leap. Man-like creatures, sure. But bugs? The scientist part of me is highly skeptical.

You are probably right. At the very least, it would be a sizeable retcon to the ghants. The river man is a more likely relation to skinny-fingers, assuming they are of a similar kind at all. Or, skinny fingers could be a remnant of the witchwood tending Tinukeda'ya which AFAIK have not been described.

 

#19 2017-08-01 00:26:04

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Darth_Nerf wrote:

Thanks! I remember reading your posts from near 15 years ago. It's been a while but this is a memorable message board.

So glad to see an old "face". Be sure to check out all the Osten Ard threads, if you get a chance.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

They have clawed legs (source: TGAT). I hope the ghants aren't Tinukeda'ya. It just seems like too big a leap. Man-like creatures, sure. But bugs? The scientist part of me is highly skeptical.

You are probably right. At the very least, it would be a sizeable retcon to the ghants. The river man is a more likely relation to skinny-fingers, assuming they are of a similar kind at all. Or, skinny fingers could be a remnant of the witchwood tending Tinukeda'ya which AFAIK have not been described.

As far as I know, they haven't been described, either. But my personal pet theory is that Geloe was one. Still, there may be others that are more evolved. Like you said, "deeper" into their environment. Maybe with long, twiggy fingers or something. Who knows?


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#20 2017-08-01 00:44:53

Darth_Nerf
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From: Canberra
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

As far as I know, they haven't been described, either. But my personal pet theory is that Geloe was one. Still, there may be others that are more evolved. Like you said, "deeper" into their environment. Maybe with long, twiggy fingers or something. Who knows?

I kind of feel like Geloe was one of a kind. Ruyan's Own. Someone totally unique. I remember Tad saying once that he'd "come clean" about Geloe at some point, but that was years before this new series was conceived of.

 

#21 2017-08-01 00:48:14

ajl3
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Ruyan and his bloodline sound like they must be very "high up" Tinukeda'ya, possibly all shape-changers like Geloe who can change form in mere instants. Very much like the "nobility" in Shadowmarch. Maybe even some sort of origin-of-the-race, like the Norns believe Utuk'ku to be for themselves?

 

#22 2017-08-01 09:05:49

Outsider
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

I really hope the fingers belong to one of the Hern Tinukeda'ya, Eoliar/Maegwin's friends, that disappeared from that land to hide out in the forests, living on the edge of civilization, watching, taking notes... building a Tinukeda'ya army.... muahahahah!

Maybe it's Yis-fidri himself, saving a human prince to make him an ally in some future conflict.


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#23 2017-08-01 14:33:52

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

ajl3 wrote:

Ruyan and his bloodline sound like they must be very "high up" Tinukeda'ya, possibly all shape-changers like Geloe who can change form in mere instants. Very much like the "nobility" in Shadowmarch. Maybe even some sort of origin-of-the-race, like the Norns believe Utuk'ku to be for themselves?

Yes. He's definitely described as the patriarch of his people.

I wonder, though, if the Bukken and other "lower" Tinukeda'ya even know of him. The Bukken are described as "chittering". Do they have a real language? Does "chittering" count? Have they lamarcked themselves so far down the path that they've lost all trace of their... I was going to say 'humanity', but that's not right... Tinukeda'ya-ness?

Ruyan Ve's armor is at Naglimund, at Slave Hold (BTW, what does that mean? The place where the Tinukeda'ya once had power?). One wonders where Ruyan Ve himself is buried, if indeed he was interred at all.


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#24 2017-08-01 14:36:24

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Darth_Nerf wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

As far as I know, they haven't been described, either. But my personal pet theory is that Geloe was one. Still, there may be others that are more evolved. Like you said, "deeper" into their environment. Maybe with long, twiggy fingers or something. Who knows?

I kind of feel like Geloe was one of a kind. Ruyan's Own. Someone totally unique. I remember Tad saying once that he'd "come clean" about Geloe at some point, but that was years before this new series was conceived of.

Well, the latest book gave us many more details than we had before: the "great-grand-daughter of Ruyan Ve" line, for example.

We do hear of Tinukeda'ya shapeshifters, but the reference is pretty vague.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
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Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#25 2017-08-01 14:45:47

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23130
Website

Re: Theories on the thin, cold fingers? *TWC spoilers*

Outsider wrote:

I really hope the fingers belong to one of the Hern Tinukeda'ya, Eoliar/Maegwin's friends, that disappeared from that land to hide out in the forests, living on the edge of civilization, watching, taking notes... building a Tinukeda'ya army.... muahahahah!

The Dwarrows who once lived at Mezutu'a? Building an army? Heh. It's hard to imagine a group less likely to do that, but we'll see. Maybe they got help from some disaffected Bukken who were tired of digging all the time.

Or maybe the people who would welcome the dwarrows of Mezutu'a are actually Bukken. If the Niskies can sing the Kilpa down, the dwarrows might be able to... chitter the Bukken into calmness. Which opens up some possibilities. Like maybe civilized Bukken. Or even Bukken that have been lamarcked into more "normal" Tinukeda'ya again.

Maybe it's Yis-fidri himself, saving a human prince to make him an ally in some future conflict.

It could be! I would like to see Yis-fidri and Yis-hadra again. (But not as savage Bukken, so I hope that doesn't happen).


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 
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