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  •  » A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

#51 2017-01-10 13:56:20

Kenan
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kia wrote:

Kenan wrote:

How about serial monogamy? :)

I think serial monogamy would be the most convinient solution. But even with this reduced numbers of intimate relationships, keeping track of different levels of kinship among the offspring would be a nightmare. Just imagine - half-siblings born with a millenia or more age difference and sometimes in different clans. This is a whole new level of patchwork-family for sure ;)

I think there's a work-around. For instance maybe not so many bloodlines are tracked, and not too many of those intermarry. Then it wouldn't be a big problem. But, going back to your original question, perhaps Ekimensio just had a mate that died before he came to be with Utuk'ku. :)


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#52 2017-01-11 12:14:10

Kia
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kenan wrote:

But, going back to your original question, perhaps Ekimensio just had a mate that died before he came to be with Utuk'ku. :)

Yup, I also think so. I was just surprised that Utuk'ku considered a 'second-hand' husband, which already sired children. Even before she became queen, she was from the ruling house, famous for her beauty and her wisdom. If norn society didn't change to much, she was quite a price and had prospects lined up for sure. So why choosing someone who already had bonds towards children and other in-laws?

Of course, she could have considered him just because he already sired children (proof of being procreative). Or it was out of political considerations. Or - how scandalous! - she just loved him. We don't know enough details.

However, realializing that Ekimensio had another wife/lover/whatever before Utuk'ku also made me wonder if Utuk'ku also had another partner before him. It would be a possible solution for a question mark I have in regards of the Year Dancing House family tree ;)

Last edited by Kia (2017-01-11 12:14:57)

 

#53 2017-01-11 12:31:38

Kenan
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kia wrote:

Kenan wrote:

But, going back to your original question, perhaps Ekimensio just had a mate that died before he came to be with Utuk'ku. :)

Yup, I also think so. I was just surprised that Utuk'ku considered a 'second-hand' husband, which already sired children. Even before she became queen, she was from the ruling house, famous for her beauty and her wisdom. If norn society didn't change to much, she was quite a price and had prospects lined up for sure. So why choosing someone who already had bonds towards children and other in-laws?

Of course, she could have considered him just because he already sired children (proof of being procreative). Or it was out of political considerations. Or - how scandalous! - she just loved him. We don't know enough details.

However, realializing that Ekimensio had another wife/lover/whatever before Utuk'ku also made me wonder if Utuk'ku also had another partner before him. It would be a possible solution for a question mark I have in regards of the Year Dancing House family tree ;)

Maybe Ekimensio was high enough game that Utuk'ku actually eliminated the first wife ;)
There might have been any kind of political decision behind their union. It's certainly not hard to come up with ideas for it.

Okay I'd love to hear more about that question mark, but maybe you like to keep it to yourself for now :)


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#54 2017-01-11 13:27:51

Magpie
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kia wrote:

Of course, she could have considered him just because he already sired children (proof of being procreative).

I was just thinking the same. Given what we know about Norns and Sithi, about how few children they have, it would make sense for fertility to be a very important quality.


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#55 2017-01-12 10:33:18

Kia
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kenan wrote:

Maybe Ekimensio was high enough game that Utuk'ku actually eliminated the first wife ;)
There might have been any kind of political decision behind their union. It's certainly not hard to come up with ideas for it.

I actually think this would be very much in character. She would have been very subtle about it of course - maybe a sort of political intrigue, which took a few great years ;)

Kenan wrote:

Kia wrote:

However, realializing that Ekimensio had another wife/lover/whatever before Utuk'ku also made me wonder if Utuk'ku also had another partner before him. It would be a possible solution for a question mark I have in regards of the Year Dancing House family tree ;)

Okay I'd love to hear more about that question mark :)

well, I was always a bit troubled in regards of the line of descendancy between Utuk'ku and Amerasu. Amerasu called her 'Great-Grandmother', therefore one of Utuk'kus children was one of Amerasu's grandparents. In every family tree I found so far Amerasu is the granddaughter of Drukhi and Nenai'su but this doesn't seem to fit to the things we know: Amerasu was born on the ships. Therefore her parents and grandparents lived at the Garden for at least some centuries. If Drukhi and Nenai'su were Amerasu's grandparents this would mean they were a couple a long time before the Gardenborn went to Osten Ard.

In TGAT Aditu tells Simon a bit about this tragic couple:
"It was the death of Drukhi, the son of Utuk'ku and her husband Ekimeniso Blackstaff, that drove the families apart. Drukhi loved and married Nenais'u, the Nightin- gale's daughter." (...)
"At that time, Utuk'ku and her husband ruled all the Gardenborn—they were the keepers of the Year-Dancing groves. When their son fell in love with Nenais'u, daughter of Jenjiyana and her mate Initri, Utuk'ku furiously opposed it. Nenais'u's parents were of our Zida'ya clan—although it had a different name in those long-ago days. They were also of the belief that the mortals, who had come to this land after the Gardenbom had arrived, should be permitted to live as they would, as long as they did not make war on our people."
"In any case, Utuk'ku and her husband were fiercely angry that their son had married a woman of what they considered to be the traitorous, mortal-loving clan that opposed them.


So, imo we have two points, which seem to contradict a direct descendancy between the tragic couple and Amerasu:

1. If Drukhi and Nenai'su had been a couple for centuries even back in the Garden, Nenai'su wouldn't have been a Zida'ya since back in the Garden they were one people.
2.  The main issue with their union was, that the bride was of a mortal loving clan, which opposed Utuk'kus politics in terms of mortals. But back in the Garden, there were no mortals. House of Year Dancing might have opposed Utuk'ku even back in the Garden, but the mortals were no topic at this time.
Of course there is the theoretical possibility that Drukhi and Nenai'su were a couple back in the Garden and only married in Osten Ard. But why would you suddenly oppose a couple which had been together for thousands of years with your blessing (and have children and grandchildren) just because you don't like some of the politics of the woman's family?  This does seem a bit unlogical to me.

And even though I have no context to prove it, I always imagined both of them as 'young'. Maybe because they have this 'Romeo and Juliet' vibe about them. I don't know.

In the end this contradiction would be solved if Amerasu was not a descendant of Drukhi but of another child of Utuk'ku. However, we were given the impression that Drukhi was the only child of Utuk'ku and Ekimensio. No other child is ever mentioned. If Utuk'ku had another mate before Ekimensio there could have been another child, which doesn't fit with the norn propaganda and therefore is no acknowledged in norn socity. Since Amerasu was born to House of Year Dancing, either Utuk'ku herself or her unknown son/daughter would been married to someone of House of Year Dancing back in the Garden.

I hope this is not to muddled - it is a bit hard to explain...(T.T)

 

#56 2017-01-12 11:02:14

ylvs
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Two thoughts:

Maybe we apply too much 19th century human morality to Gardenborn sexuality.

Maybe Amerasu called Utuk'ku great grandmother in a figurative way like the norns call her mother of all.


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#57 2017-01-12 11:29:18

Kia
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

ylvs wrote:

Two thoughts:

Maybe we apply too much 19th century human morality to Gardenborn sexuality.

oh, I didn't mean to apply 'morality' at all (^___^). I'm quite sure, that there isn't 'the one and only love' if you live that long. I'm sure no one is making a big deal of changing partners. Even polyamory could taking place without anyone being troubled about it (even though I think it doesn't work as a general procreation politics for the reasons I mentioned). I just think of Utuk'ku as a character: she doesn't seem to deal with opposition too well (remember, the tribes got separated because she couldn't stand the fact that she wasn't able to get through with her politics). I just cannot not imagine her bonding with her husbands ex-wife over a cup of tea ;)

ylvs wrote:

Maybe Amerasu called Utuk'ku great grandmother in a figurative way like the norns call her mother of all.

...but Utuk'ku also calls her 'granddaughter' and 'little Amerasu'. She doesn't quite seems to be the person to call everyone 'my dear' or 'child'.

 

#58 2017-01-12 12:38:48

Kenan
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kia, you'd be interested in checking out this thread, and the thread linked in the second post of that thread.

I see a problem with Amerasu being born on a ship but the issue of her grandparents marriage taking place much later... weird!

Also, I always didn't take the "great grandmother/daughter" literally. There might be more "great" skipped over.

More later, perhaps...

Last edited by Kenan (2017-01-12 12:39:11)


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#59 2017-01-13 05:57:26

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way
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From: Yonder green hills
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Finished the book!!!

So now some of my views while trying to not spoil the next one...

I love that we see more of the Norns... also feel that their society really explains the events in MST... With their "leaders" being more concerned with status and pride than anything else... With some of them trying to be sensible and seeing that they will only destroy themselves if they continue the way they have... It's a very difficult thing to comprehend when an entire race/species/group seems to think throwing themselves against a wall to proof a point from the past is more suitable than finding another way to live. There are many parables in our current world to that as well...

I love that it shows you that a war is not necessarily over when one side has "won".

It's clear that understanding between mortals and Hikeda'ya is non-existant still, with Isgrimnur demanding the surrender of all their leaders including Utuk'ku... Not understanding that she is not "just" a queen to them...

I love how Tad always writes in these little storylines with non main characters, in this case about Porto and Endri.

I'm absolutely sure that Ayaminu and Yaarike were in contact... She wascarrying one oif the witnesses, she does tell Isgrimnur that she lived before the falling out, she suggest to him quite strongly ( for a Sithi) to parlay and she clearly has an extrea reason to be there besides "listening and learning".

I find the idea that Suno'ku might be of mixed parentage a very interestibg and appealing idea... If she were, she would have had to be better than anyone else to make up for it, which would explain her fierceness. It would give Akhenabi even more incentive to kill or exile her... And Muyare's price for aiding in this plan is that Suno'ku's idea of interbreeding with slaves should be supported, which sounds like Muyare at least isn't that bothered about the idea, so for him having a mixed race general would maybe not be that strange.

I really got on Viyeki's side in this story... He does really remind me of Simon, although maybe less mooncalfish...

You can also feel in this story that it's now going on too long.... Isgrimnur is tired of the fighting, I think that's why he might come over as "diminished"... He has to try and balance good sense, the orders of his lieges and the fire of his subcommanders... He has alrewady had years of fighting... Most of his subcommanders have onlly had some fights and mostly those with Skali and descendants...

Wow... I'm gonna stop now... Think I might come up with more later...Sorry for the load of spelling mistakes, this tablet thing doesn't know English very well!!


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#60 2017-01-13 11:27:27

Kia
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kenan wrote:

Kia, you'd be interested in checking out this thread, and the thread linked in the second post of that thread.

a very fascinating discussion - I would love to give my two cents about a few points but I'm not sure if this can of worms should be re-opened *pokes the linked threads with a stick* ;)

Kenan wrote:

I see a problem with Amerasu being born on a ship but the issue of her grandparents marriage taking place much later... weird!

Also, I always didn't take the "great grandmother/daughter" literally. There might be more "great" skipped over.

...but with evey 'great' the whole affair gets more and more inlogical. *scratches her head*

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way wrote:

I love that we see more of the Norns... also feel that their society really explains the events in MST... With their "leaders" being more concerned with status and pride than anything else... With some of them trying to be sensible and seeing that they will only destroy themselves if they continue the way they have...

What I find very baffling about norn society is that it seems much more 'alive' than the sithi society. Just the fact that norns actuall have professions and they spend their days serving their orders (even if the target and the moral of their leadership is more than questionable), while the sithi spend their days wander around and play shent.

 

#61 2017-01-13 12:19:49

Ad1tu
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kia wrote:

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way wrote:

I love that we see more of the Norns... also feel that their society really explains the events in MST... With their "leaders" being more concerned with status and pride than anything else... With some of them trying to be sensible and seeing that they will only destroy themselves if they continue the way they have...

What I find very baffling about norn society is that it seems much more 'alive' than the sithi society. Just the fact that norns actuall have professions and they spend their days serving their orders (even if the target and the moral of their leadership is more than questionable), while the sithi spend their days wander around and play shent.

I just finished reading the chapter in SoF where Simon meets Amerasu, and you're right, this is something that I noticed while reading THoWWL, but I wasn't sure if maybe I missed something key in MS&T, where the Sithi have the Orders as well, or some equivalent. So far, no such luck, just lots of aimless wandering. But I wonder if the difference is that the Norns were gearing up for war, and are now trying to survive a siege, whereas the Sithi just sort of... stopped everything. The Norns had some big end-game plan, they want to see humans wiped out. The Sithi as a whole don't seem to have that kind of direction.

Something else interesting that I forgot to mention... I don't have THoWWL here in front of me, so you'll have to forgive the vagueness... I seem to remember a part  from Viyeki's POV where he mentions something about the Order of Echoes, like, recallibrating everybody's brain wavelength. I'm gonna have to look this up when I get home. So if I'm remembering this correctly, do the Norns really have a hive mind?


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#62 2017-01-13 12:41:01

ylvs
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

HOWWL wrote:

“The Celebrants and the Echoes bound the other orders together in a web of shared thought. In the midst of all these measures, Akhenabi, the Lord of Song, prepared his order for a great strike against the mortal enemy, to weaken their hearts and turn the taste of their presumed tri- umph to ashes in their mouths.

This, Ad1tu? You're right this sounds hive-mindish. Cool catch!


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#63 2017-01-13 12:55:33

Kia
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

and this:

HOOWL wrote:

It would be strange indeed, Viyeki thought, if Kuju-Vayo and his officers had in truth been unaware of the request for parley, since their task was to pass the thoughts and demands of Nakkiga's ruling elite to the other royal orders by use of the sacred objects walled "Witnesses", mirrors said to have been fashioned from dragon's scales

this sounds to me if the members of the Order of Echoes are trained to be very effective "Witnesses" users. You might say they are communication officers...

Last edited by Kia (2017-01-13 12:56:55)

 

#64 2017-01-13 13:05:15

Kia
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Ad1tu wrote:

I just finished reading the chapter in SoF where Simon meets Amerasu, and you're right, this is something that I noticed while reading THoWWL, but I wasn't sure if maybe I missed something key in MS&T, where the Sithi have the Orders as well, or some equivalent. So far, no such luck, just lots of aimless wandering. But I wonder if the difference is that the Norns were gearing up for war, and are now trying to survive a siege, whereas the Sithi just sort of... stopped everything. The Norns had some big end-game plan, they want to see humans wiped out. The Sithi as a whole don't seem to have that kind of direction.

I remember vaguely that the sithi too had singers in Naglimund during TGAT. But very much like the 'Loremistress' title it felt oddly dusty. Just like these individuals were more of 'remainers' than an active order.

Maybe there are not enough sithi left for this type of strict, order passed society? We know that there are several thousand norns at Nakkiga even after the war, when thousands were lost during the fight. I have no idea how many sithi are left, since their seemed to be scattered over all of Osten Ard...

 

#65 2017-01-13 14:15:01

kragadox
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kia wrote:

Maybe there are not enough sithi left for this type of strict, order passed society? We know that there are several thousand norns at Nakkiga even after the war, when thousands were lost during the fight. I have no idea how many sithi are left, since their seemed to be scattered over all of Osten Ard...

DBC wrote:

In the deep caverns below Asu’a, lit by cunning mirrors, grew the witchwood gardens, the place where the Sithi tended the trees whose strange wood they used as the southern men used bronze, and as the northerners used iron. The witchwood trees, whose roots, some say, reached down into the very center of the earth, were tended by gardeners as sacred as priests. Every day they spoke the old spells and performed the unchanging rituals that made the witchwood thrive, as the king and his court in the palace above sank more and more into despair and forgetfulness.

It seems like the Sithi at least had a class of witchwood tenders as Jarnauga described in DBC.  From the descriptions of Sithi society described in SOF and elsewhere it also seems like there is no rigid caste system or division of labor.

 

#66 2017-01-14 06:06:50

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

I do have the feeling that the Sithi are less.. ehm.. organized than the Norns, buyt I think they do have some "orders" don't they? Wish I had my books here....


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#67 2017-01-14 06:32:47

Kenan
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way wrote:

I do have the feeling that the Sithi are less.. ehm.. organized than the Norns, buyt I think they do have some "orders" don't they? Wish I had my books here....

They don't necessarily need to be as organised as the Norns. The Norns live in a harsh environment, and they have agendas in the outside world. The Sithi live in their forest garden and just chill ;)


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#68 2017-01-14 06:48:57

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way
Mantis
From: Yonder green hills
Registered: 2006-03-29
Posts: 13106

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kenan wrote:

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way wrote:

I do have the feeling that the Sithi are less.. ehm.. organized than the Norns, buyt I think they do have some "orders" don't they? Wish I had my books here....

They don't necessarily need to be as organised as the Norns. The Norns live in a harsh environment, and they have agendas in the outside world. The Sithi live in their forest garden and just chill ;)

Hahaha... That is so true.... They seem to be less motivated to get going as well, where the Norns can't wait to get going.... Maybe it's the weather... People in warm countries usually develop a more relaxed way of doing things... Oh and also the Sithi don't really have to struggle for food... It's basically there already... Whereas the Norns need to be serious about food collection!!


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#69 2017-01-14 16:01:36

Kia
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kenan wrote:

They don't necessarily need to be as organised as the Norns. The Norns live in a harsh environment, and they have agendas in the outside world. The Sithi live in their forest garden and just chill ;)

...but strangely enough they doesn't seem to have a good time while chilling. From what we saw they are just...killing time. Other than food production (tending the forest gardens, making cheese and bread and stuff like this) they just seem to wandering around aimlessly. It's like the downfall of Asu'a was the deathblow to any kind of ambition they might have left. So you might wonder: what is worse for the tribe as such? To have a deadly 'we will take our land back' agenda or no to have any agenda at all...both do not sound very healthy to me...

 

#70 2017-01-15 01:11:30

Kenan
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kia wrote:

...but with evey 'great' the whole affair gets more and more inlogical. *scratches her head*

I realise it wouldn't make things more logical :)

What I find very baffling about norn society is that it seems much more 'alive' than the sithi society. Just the fact that norns actuall have professions and they spend their days serving their orders (even if the target and the moral of their leadership is more than questionable), while the sithi spend their days wander around and play shent.
...but strangely enough they doesn't seem to have a good time while chilling. From what we saw they are just...killing time. Other than food production (tending the forest gardens, making cheese and bread and stuff like this) they just seem to wandering around aimlessly. It's like the downfall of Asu'a was the deathblow to any kind of ambition they might have left. So you might wonder: what is worse for the tribe as such? To have a deadly 'we will take our land back' agenda or no to have any agenda at all...both do not sound very healthy to me...

Everyone needs a purpose, or they will just waste away. No strife, no struggle, no progression. Is that a fantasy trope with "elves"? That they don't have a purpose except surviving, while the humans have ambitions. Well then the Norns are a unique in that case.

This makes me wonder and look ahead to the end of TLK though. What could be a plausible resolution to the story? We (who haven't read tWC) don't even know how the plot will be set up, but at least we know much of the back story. But I'm wondering...
1) Can the Sithi and Norns be reunited?
2) Can the Tinukeda'ya be reunited with either Sithi or Norns? Or both?
3) Can there ever be enough empathy from humans to allow other races freedom in the same world they live in? For all the Keda'ya, or for the Qanuc?
4) What will be the cost for any of these things to be even attempted?


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#71 2017-01-15 01:25:57

ylvs
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From: Art Central
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Posts: 13270

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Believe me Kenan, even those of us who did already read TWC have not a clue how to answer any of these questions. At least I don't.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#72 2017-01-15 01:33:55

Kenan
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

ylvs wrote:

Believe me Kenan, even those of us who did already read TWC have not a clue how to answer any of these questions. At least I don't.

Oh I am sure you don't, but you probably know how the plot is set up for the trilogy??? :)


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#73 2017-01-15 01:34:40

ylvs
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From: Art Central
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Posts: 13270

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Ah well, obviously.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#74 2017-01-15 01:36:23

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

*tries to imagine a Tadbrick without any plot*

Beautiful worldbuilding though ...

*giggles*


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#75 2017-01-15 01:40:15

Kenan
Pilgrim
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8755
Website

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

*giggles too*

Well, that's all I meant to say :) Not that you'd be able to answer all those questions. I hope we'll have any of them answered!


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 
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