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#1 2017-01-03 16:28:28

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

So it's out for almost a day. Let's discuss it in all its glory.

Meaning: IF YOU HAVE NOT READ HOWWL YET KEEP OUT BECAUSE THIS THREAD IS FULL OF SPOILERS.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#2 2017-01-03 16:30:43

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

I will say more very soon but am much too tired now (just waiting for that stupid laundry to stop skidding), so I just say this: towers seem not to be enough anymore, right? A collapsing mountain? Awesome!


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#3 2017-01-04 07:38:58

Kia
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From: Germany
Registered: 2014-06-08
Posts: 1040
Website

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Finished the book last night :-) And while my little brain is chewing happily on the details these are first things drifting through my mind:

- when the cat is sleeping, the mice will play. Terry Pratchett's Lord Vetinari would fit in perfectly into this nest of ...politicians...
- the coffin of a fallen hero would be a perfect place to leave a copy of a prized jewel without your family asking to many questions, wouldn't it?
- people supposed to be dead have the tendency to reemerge. Should this be true, Jiriki should have some tricks in this sleeve...
- I wonder where Yaarike lived before the parting - somehow I guess it was Hikehikayo. Right, Ayaminu?
- Seeing the norn cuisine, suddenly I feel sympathy for the norns - living of cooked moos on a regular base would turn everyone into crazy murders :)

PS: does anyone know what 'tza' means? I guess it is some kind of honorific, but it isn't included in the Glossary...

 

#4 2017-01-04 08:12:56

Kenan
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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Just finished! Oh, that was so finger licking delicious! My mind is boggled. What to say?

Suno'ku, did Yaarike mean to say she would become like a new Storm King in her actions? He claimed she was the best of them, just like Amerasu claimed Ineluki had been the best of them...

A Witchwood Crown on the coffin... time to speculate again about the next novel, for those of us who haven't read it! Could the title then refer to a crown that has been buried? Even Suno'ku's burial crown? Will her body be re-animated by the spirit of the Storm King? *shivers* (no I don't think so...)

Will Sludig ever get any rewards for his long service and many deeds?

What will become of the Norn/Human interbreeding program? I smell Uruk-hai.

Was it actually a dark spirit that spoke with the voice of Akhenabi through Tzayin-kha? What does that imply?

What is the Sithi agenda that Ayaminu has been involved in?

And what lurks in the dark beneath the mountain?


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#5 2017-01-04 10:00:57

pennywit
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Registered: 2013-11-20
Posts: 38

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

I commented elsewhere on this board -- this is a very grim novel, a very dark one, but not grimdark.  It really felt like a brutal examination of the emotions that arise after a war is over, and the somewhat unsatisfying sensation of a war that is not really won, but not really lost, either. 

I found Viyeki and Sunno'ku very compelling.  We haven't seen much of Norn society previously (aside from a few interludes with Utuk'ku).  The Norns here are a tragic species, stifled, even trapped by the queen who rules them.  Viyeki and Sunno'ku were two futures, radical departures from the norm -- one isolationist, one vengeful -- but both dedicated to the idea the Norns needed to change. 

What is the Sithi agenda that Ayaminu has been involved in?

I wonder where Yaarike lived before the parting - somehow I guess it was Hikehikayo. Right, Ayaminu?

Recall that the Norns were reluctant to communicate magically because Ayaminu had a witness.  I believe Ayaminu used that witness to stay in contact with Yaarike and help him enact his plan to isolate the Norns from mortal vengeance and give them a chance to rebuild. 

Duke Isgrimnur was a huge presence in Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn.  Here, his character seemed somewhat muted.  I'm not sure if this is because the author hasn't come back to character in a while, or if this represents Isgrimnur's weariness with war. 

If I had to classify Heart as anything, I'd say it's a parable about the futility of revenge.

 

#6 2017-01-04 10:06:31

pennywit
Pilgrim
Registered: 2013-11-20
Posts: 38

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Addendum:

Recall that the Norns were reluctant to communicate magically because Ayaminu had a witness.  I believe Ayaminu used that witness to stay in contact with Yaarike and help him enact his plan to isolate the Norns from mortal vengeance and give them a chance to rebuild.

Does something count as Chekov's Gun when it's fired in the background?

 

#7 2017-01-04 12:25:44

Kenan
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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

pennywit wrote:

I commented elsewhere on this board -- this is a very grim novel, a very dark one, but not grimdark.  It really felt like a brutal examination of the emotions that arise after a war is over, and the somewhat unsatisfying sensation of a war that is not really won, but not really lost, either. 

I found Viyeki and Sunno'ku very compelling.  We haven't seen much of Norn society previously (aside from a few interludes with Utuk'ku).  The Norns here are a tragic species, stifled, even trapped by the queen who rules them.  Viyeki and Sunno'ku were two futures, radical departures from the norm -- one isolationist, one vengeful -- but both dedicated to the idea the Norns needed to change.

I agree. They definitely came to life as characters, and you start to care about them despite them being Norns!

Recall that the Norns were reluctant to communicate magically because Ayaminu had a witness.  I believe Ayaminu used that witness to stay in contact with Yaarike and help him enact his plan to isolate the Norns from mortal vengeance and give them a chance to rebuild.

Well she does say she knows Norns from before the parting, which would be in favour of your theory. Yaarike could very well be one of them, as it is established he's on the older side as well.
 

Duke Isgrimnur was a huge presence in Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn.  Here, his character seemed somewhat muted.  I'm not sure if this is because the author hasn't come back to character in a while, or if this represents Isgrimnur's weariness with war.

I didn't feel that his character was muted... weary, but determined. A bit single-minded, but perhaps not used to commanding such an unusual expedition. Anyway, this is a post-the-death-of-his-son Isgrimnur, and he is allowed to have changed, of course. 

If I had to classify Heart as anything, I'd say it's a parable about the futility of revenge.

From a Norn perspective, all of MST could be called that too :) There's definitely ingredients of the futility of revenge here too, but for me it's about more than that.


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#8 2017-01-05 14:56:15

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Oh geez after writing my review for the various websites I am too tired now to discuss further here. Ah well tomorrow is another day.

But I want to share a funny story at least: During my beta read and the ensuing mailing with Tad I said at some point that I wondered how in all the horror and confusion of the battle of the Hayholt the Norns managed to built a coffin for General Ekisuno and where they found the witchwood for it. Tad's answer was that Ekisuno actually brought the coffin with him from Nakkiga. That Norns were so obsessed with death that high nobility traveled with their coffins. Kinda vampire like not only in the shade of their skins ...


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#9 2017-01-05 20:40:24

JirikisLoveSlave
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From: Texas
Registered: 2014-08-22
Posts: 207
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

I have not read one post because I am not finished. I am only on page 23 and I am disliking isgrimmur - who I have loved in the past.  However, I think that's on purpose  so he can have a change of heart and hatred towards the end.

I am just such a SITHI at heart. I love Ayaminu so far!

Just checking in to let you guys know I'm reading. Talk when I finish!

 

#10 2017-01-06 00:18:35

JustCharlotte
Pilgrim
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2002-02-21
Posts: 1955

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

It's been 48 hours since I finished and this is what I want to say.

There is a passage in TGAT, Chapter 52 'Living in Exile', that I often roll over in my mind.  It is between Aditu and Isgrimnur.


"Ineluki... the Storm King". She turned back to look across the Kynslagh, as though she could see the old A'sua looming in the darkness.  "He was the brightest-burning flame ever kindled in this land. Had the mortals not come, Duke Isgrimnur - and attacked our great house with axes and fire, he might have led us out of the shadows of exile and back into the light of the living world again.  That was his dream.  But any great dream can flower into madness".  She was silent for a while.  "Perhaps we must all learn to live with smaller dreams."

I don't recall ever discussing it in the re-read but every time I read this passage I find myself thinking that if Aditu had been talking to me, and not Isgrimnur, I would have disagreed in part with what she said.

Then I read this passage in tHOWWL:

"Suno'ku was the heart of what was lost, but made flesh - one who believed the old truths with all her spirit, and could make them real to others by the force of her own belief.  But the old truths, I fear, are no longer true, Viyeki-tza. That is why the next generation will require different minds, different truths."

Over more than 20 years since TGAT, I feel like this was a reply to what Aditu said - from a Norn of all things. It was such a satisfying and rewarding feeling to come to this passage and feel like my own thoughts had been answered in part. I felt like cheering out loud.

Thank you Tad.

 

#11 2017-01-06 10:56:35

Kia
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From: Germany
Registered: 2014-06-08
Posts: 1040
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

ylvs wrote:

During my beta read and the ensuing mailing with Tad I said at some point that I wondered how in all the horror and confusion of the battle of the Hayholt the Norns managed to built a coffin for General Ekisuno and where they found the witchwood for it. Tad's answer was that Ekisuno actually brought the coffin with him from Nakkiga. That Norns were so obsessed with death that high nobility traveled with their coffins. Kinda vampire like not only in the shade of their skins ...

...and not the small folding-coffin for the lady's bag - no a monstrum, that needs it's own heavy load project XD

But seriously, if you consider how the norns (nobles at least) act, you could think that dying is their biggest target in life. They even need to be reminded, that they are more useful being alive than dead by their superiors. They are worse than the sithi, which got scolded by First Grandmother for their intimitate relationship to the death back in 'Stone of Farewell'.
Interestingly enough, Yaarike does mention that he finds (only) death 'distasteful'. And Akenhabi doesn't seem to carry around a deathwish either. The older the norn, the less eager they seem to die for the Garden and the queen, as it seems.

Oh, two other another random things, which just plobbed into my mind:
1. We learn that house Iyora descended from Ekimeniso in the male line. Not from the queen (I'm sure they would mentioned that). So either Utu'ku was not Ekimenisos first mate or he did entertain other relationships while he was married to the queen. Cheating Utu'ku doesn't seem to be survivable though...
2. Remember the story of Hamakho Wormslayer walking through Tzo feathered by arrows? As it seems, The Lost Garden wasn't that quiet of a paradise, if you could get feathered by arrows there. It might be the doing of the doing of the Unbeing, but Hamakho was said to be the founder of Utu'kus clan and Utu'ku lived at the Garden before the Unbeing came.

 

#12 2017-01-06 11:19:42

pennywit
Pilgrim
Registered: 2013-11-20
Posts: 38

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

So either Utu'ku was not Ekimenisos first mate

We all know Gilligan was the first mate.

 

#13 2017-01-07 08:07:27

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Finally I find some time to join the discussion. As you all know I already read TWC so I won't comment on anything that I have more knowledge about than you guys. Fortunately there is enough left to talk about ...


Kia wrote:

- the coffin of a fallen hero would be a perfect place to leave a copy of a prized jewel without your family asking to many questions, wouldn't it?

Haha. That is something I did not think about at all. I do not think it is so, though. In a conversation with Isgrimnur Ayaminu says that the humans do not need to punish the Norns as they are likely doing that themselves. Regret, death obsession and sacrifice seem to run deep in Norn culture. So I think that Yaarike did in deed put the HOWWL in Suno'ku's grave to atone for his sin (or however one would call that in Norn instaed of christian terms) of killing her.

- I wonder where Yaarike lived before the parting - somehow I guess it was Hikehikayo. Right, Ayaminu?

My thought exactly. And further: was there communication between them? A secret meeting? And what the heck is the purpose of Ayaminu being there in the first place? I do not buy the "observe and learn" thing at all. At least there is certainly more to it.

- Seeing the norn cuisine, suddenly I feel sympathy for the norns - living of cooked moos on a regular base would turn everyone into crazy murders :)

At least they have blind fish at the end - but I agree wholeheartedly

PS: does anyone know what 'tza' means? I guess it is some kind of honorific, but it isn't included in the Glossary...

No. And to my surprise I cannot find it anywhere. I'll ask Dog.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#14 2017-01-07 08:54:46

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kenan wrote:

Suno'ku, did Yaarike mean to say she would become like a new Storm King in her actions? He claimed she was the best of them, just like Amerasu claimed Ineluki had been the best of them...

I made this connection as well and think this is it. That's why she could not be allowed to live in Yaarike's an Akhenabi's opinion.

Was it actually a dark spirit that spoke with the voice of Akhenabi through Tzayin-kha? What does that imply?

No. It was Akhenabi who spoke and Suno'ku made up the evil spirit to have a reason not to obey him. And this disobiedience is on of Akhenabi's reason to want to have her killed. Because I think Akhenabi and Yaarike pursue the same goal but for different reasons. Yaarike shares his, on Akhenabi's we can only speculate: getting rid of a potential rival?

What is the Sithi agenda that Ayaminu has been involved in?

And is it a Sithi agenda or an Ayaminu one?

And what lurks in the dark beneath the mountain?

I am not sure I want to know ...


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#15 2017-01-07 09:01:32

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

pennywit wrote:

I believe Ayaminu used that witness to stay in contact with Yaarike and help him enact his plan to isolate the Norns from mortal vengeance and give them a chance to rebuild.

But if so wouldn't other Norns not notice said contact? Through other witnesses? Same as Ayaminu would notice communication between Norns?


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#16 2017-01-07 10:30:05

gopher
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Registered: 2015-02-15
Posts: 28

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Finished yesterday; well done, Tad. I enjoyed it muchly. The Perdruin soldier's end was very sad. Off to pre-purchase The Witchwood Crown.

 

#17 2017-01-07 11:14:41

Kia
Pilgrim
From: Germany
Registered: 2014-06-08
Posts: 1040
Website

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

ylvs wrote:

Kia wrote:

- the coffin of a fallen hero would be a perfect place to leave a copy of a prized jewel without your family asking to many questions, wouldn't it?

Haha. That is something I did not think about at all. I do not think it is so, though. In a conversation with Isgrimnur Ayaminu says that the humans do not need to punish the Norns as they are likely doing that themselves. Regret, death obsession and sacrifice seem to run deep in Norn culture. So I think that Yaarike did in deed put the HOWWL in Suno'ku's grave to atone for his sin (or however one would call that in Norn instaed of christian terms) of killing her.

My initial thought was that he somehow gave it to Ayaminu. I reminded me about Iyu'unigato giving Ti-tuno to Hern as a token of trust when they forged their pact. But you are right. It might also be true that Yaarike did bury it - maybe as atonement, maybe as a symbol to 'burying the past'.

ylvs wrote:

Kia wrote:

I wonder where Yaarike lived before the parting - somehow I guess it was Hikehikayo

My thought exactly. And further: was there communication between them? A secret meeting?

I'm quite sure the Echos would noticed them communicating through the witness. Therefore I think they did actually meet during the rise of the dead. Isgrimmnur couldn't find her during this time and she didn't wanted to share where she had been. Risky for Yaarike, but using animal messengers would even more risky (given they didn't encode the message in Hikehikayo slang XD).

ylvs wrote:

And what the heck is the purpose of Ayaminu being there in the first place? I do not buy the "observe and learn" thing at all. At least there is certainly more to it.

I don't buy it either. It was mentioned that Ayaminu did join on Jiriki's request and Seoman made sure this request was acknowledged. Ayaminu also said, that she 'did what she was asked to'. Therefore I'm quite sure that she was sent to do something. I found also strange that a simple 'observer' would giving advice about the wall and the gate so freely. It's more like she wanted to be brought to Nakkiga or create a scenario of danger to help her more peaceful norn contacts to change some things in their favor. The only thing which bugs me about this theory is that Isgrimmnur wasn't supposed to go to Nakkiga in the first place but only to protect the settlements in north while the norns fled home.

ylvs wrote:

Kia wrote:

does anyone know what 'tza' means? I guess it is some kind of honorific, but it isn't included in the Glossary...

No. And to my surprise I cannot find it anywhere. I'll ask Dog.

Yay! Thanks! (^___^)

ylvs wrote:

Kenan wrote:

Suno'ku, did Yaarike mean to say she would become like a new Storm King in her actions? He claimed she was the best of them, just like Amerasu claimed Ineluki had been the best of them...

I made this connection as well and think this is it. That's why she could not be allowed to live in Yaarike's an Akhenabi's opinion.

Suno'ku seemed to be a prodigy like Ineluki was, so in this way they are similiar. But while Suno'ku was the embodiment of the norn agenda, I always was under the impression that she also had some kind of personal agenda. Gaining influence was certainly part of it (remember how she utilized the lower casts). Viyeki wondered how times like this would bring forth a prodigy like her, which means she stood in the shadow of her (now dead) general foreparent and only came to importance after his death.

In the end, her growing influence would prevent the norns from adapting their way of living (at least while the queen is sleeping). Instead she would destroy the race by causing one war after another to reach her goals. In this way she is different from Ineluki, who wanted protect Asu'a and turned mad thanks to Sorrow. Maybe you could say, that Ineluki turned mad with grief while Suno'ku is some sort of psychopath. It's a bit hard to put the finger on the difference, so my thoughts might make no sense...

 

#18 2017-01-07 11:57:59

Kenan
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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8755
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

ylvs wrote:

Kenan wrote:

Suno'ku, did Yaarike mean to say she would become like a new Storm King in her actions? He claimed she was the best of them, just like Amerasu claimed Ineluki had been the best of them...

I made this connection as well and think this is it. That's why she could not be allowed to live in Yaarike's an Akhenabi's opinion.

Well, not allowed to remain with the Norns at least, seems like Yaarike tried to make her go with the Rimmersmen. Or do you think Yaarike lied about that?

Was it actually a dark spirit that spoke with the voice of Akhenabi through Tzayin-kha? What does that imply?

No. It was Akhenabi who spoke and Suno'ku made up the evil spirit to have a reason not to obey him. And this disobiedience is on of Akhenabi's reason to want to have her killed. Because I think Akhenabi and Yaarike pursue the same goal but for different reasons. Yaarike shares his, on Akhenabi's we can only speculate: getting rid of a potential rival?

It makes sense, but we can't be sure. Unless you have assurances from tWC? And I made a possible connection between the "evil spirit" and the "dark beneath the mountain" (Balrog? :O )

What is the Sithi agenda that Ayaminu has been involved in?

And is it a Sithi agenda or an Ayaminu one?

A rogue Sithi? Well if Yaarike could be said to be a rogue Norn, then why not. But it's a bit much all at the same time. Isgrimnur claimed Simon had asked him to let her come along, I think? Of course, we don't know the story behind that.


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#19 2017-01-07 12:08:06

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32660
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

I'm wondering if Suno'ku maybe is part human - I started wondering about that when she is first described, as being rather tall for a Norn woman, and with strangely pale, grey-shot eyes, and then there's the fact that she advocates for Norns having children with mortals.
On the other hand, of course, Norn society seems like everyone (at least among the higher castes) would know her whole lineage all the way back to the Garden, so it seems unlikely that nobody would know if there was a human in there somewhere...


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#20 2017-01-07 12:29:10

Kenan
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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8755
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Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Magpie wrote:

I'm wondering if Suno'ku maybe is part human - I started wondering about that when she is first described, as being rather tall for a Norn woman, and with strangely pale, grey-shot eyes, and then there's the fact that she advocates for Norns having children with mortals.
On the other hand, of course, Norn society seems like everyone (at least among the higher castes) would know her whole lineage all the way back to the Garden, so it seems unlikely that nobody would know if there was a human in there somewhere...

An interesting theory. In the book it is established that coupling with the human slaves is not uncommon. So it wouldn't be so far fetched. But somehow I think that the burning spirit of Suno'ku (and Ineluki - names are not too dissimilar, hmm?) is all Norn. It would be more fitting.


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#21 2017-01-07 13:38:35

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kenan wrote:

It makes sense, but we can't be sure. Unless you have assurances from tWC?

No, I don't. As I said I do not comment on anything that I have more knowledge about than you guys. Like I did not say anything about Sludig or the norn breeding programme.

*grins*


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#22 2017-01-07 13:44:24

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32660
Website

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Yeah. I've only read through this thread once, haven't had time and brain yet to post more, but I had moments of, "ooohhh - no, I can't say anything about that."


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#23 2017-01-07 15:42:04

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Kia wrote:

PS: does anyone know what 'tza' means? I guess it is some kind of honorific, but it isn't included in the Glossary...

Tad via mail wrote:

It’s a slightly affectionate honorific from an elder to his or her junior.  It’s a bit like calling someone, “My good fellow”, or “My dear Watson,” but with a connotation of age-to-youth.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
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#24 2017-01-08 04:55:45

Kia
Pilgrim
From: Germany
Registered: 2014-06-08
Posts: 1040
Website

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

ylvs wrote:

Kia wrote:

PS: does anyone know what 'tza' means? I guess it is some kind of honorific, but it isn't included in the Glossary...

Tad via mail wrote:

It’s a slightly affectionate honorific from an elder to his or her junior.  It’s a bit like calling someone, “My good fellow”, or “My dear Watson,” but with a connotation of age-to-youth.

(^____^) thanks for explaining, Tad and ylvs! another entry for the Gardenborn-dictonary :)

...but now I need to find a way to get rid of the image of Yaarike wearing a deerstalker and smoking a pipe - sometimes I think I should give my brain less sugar, so it won't torment me with hilarious stuff anymore XD

 

#25 2017-01-08 15:48:26

Ad1tu
Pilgrim
From: Buffysadharc
Registered: 2004-02-22
Posts: 6334

Re: A VERY SPOILERISH DISCUSSION OF THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST

Ok, just finished reading, so, a few thoughts.

First, Viyeki kind of reminds me of Simon. When Yaarike tells him they are to stop meeting, Viyeki makes the hand signs, and then, "In a flat tone Yaarike said, 'And yet I can see you still have questions.'" That was when I first noticed it. But throughout the story, he's constantly thinking, and Yaarike more than once prods him on to think on his own. Early on, when they're at Tangleroot Castle, Viyeki asks Yaarike to explain his reasons, and gets, "Have you given up thinking for yourself, Viyeki-tza?" And of course all of Viyeki's investigations and questions at the end, when he confront Yaarike about his role in the collapse of the mountain. It makes me think of what Simon & Morgenes relationship might have been like had, well, all of MS&T not happened and he had simply gone on being Morgenes apprentice.

Kenan wrote:

Magpie wrote:

I'm wondering if Suno'ku maybe is part human - I started wondering about that when she is first described, as being rather tall for a Norn woman, and with strangely pale, grey-shot eyes, and then there's the fact that she advocates for Norns having children with mortals.
On the other hand, of course, Norn society seems like everyone (at least among the higher castes) would know her whole lineage all the way back to the Garden, so it seems unlikely that nobody would know if there was a human in there somewhere...

An interesting theory. In the book it is established that coupling with the human slaves is not uncommon. So it wouldn't be so far fetched. But somehow I think that the burning spirit of Suno'ku (and Ineluki - names are not too dissimilar, hmm?) is all Norn. It would be more fitting.

This is interesting, and I wonder about some of the Norn nobility lineage as well. Because in the council session when Suno'ku first brings up the idea of breeding with mortals, we have: "Her words fell into utter silence. Even Muyare looked ashamed, though he did not gainsay her, and Viyeki could not help wondering what strange negotiations between the marshal and his younger relative had preceded the council."
My first thought was maybe that Muyare had some kind of fling with a mortal, and his cousin knew about it and was trying to do him a favor by making it acceptable, so he didn't have to be ashamed.
After reading the whole thing and finding out that Muyare was part of the group who planned to bring down the mountain, I wonder if his reaction was just, "Oh god, not this again, please shut up." But that still leaves the question of why she would bring it up in the first place. Is it a noble calling and she wanted to increase the number of Sacrifices? Or does she have some deep, dark secret?

Kenan wrote:

A Witchwood Crown on the coffin... time to speculate again about the next novel, for those of us who haven't read it! Could the title then refer to a crown that has been buried? Even Suno'ku's burial crown? Will her body be re-animated by the spirit of the Storm King? *shivers* (no I don't think so...)

A crown that has been buried, perhaps THIS crown, or perhaps the crown that was buried with Ineluki? How often is a witchwood crown buried with a Norn? And is it only with Norns, or is this a Sithi practice as well? This also makes me wonder again who IS the last kind of Osten Ard. Is it Simon? He only really rules over the humans of Osten Ard. So is it somebody from the past, before the fall of Asu'a, or even further back from before the Parting?

So many questions.

Also, I didn't say it yet, but WOW. I love this story. It really does tug at the heartstrings, both sides of it. I found myself rooting for the Norns when we were hearing their perspective, but then rooting for Duke Isgrimnur & co when we were hearing their side. It's sad, and just a tiny bit hopeful.


If you should do what makes you happy, and no one can tell you what makes you happy, then that means no one can tell you what to do!

Tamishu's Ramblings

 
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