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#1 2013-03-15 01:04:27

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
Website

The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 12, chps 22& 23 *SPOILERS*

So, no one got the new discussion off the ground, so I decided to start it, at long last.

Before we get started with this week's chapter selection, I want to mention that while I was idly perusing Peter's old Smarch site, I came across this page, where the roots of The Dirty Streets of Heaven are revealed:

Peter's Smarch Site wrote:

About mystery novels in general, because [Tad] wants to write one and is thinking about what hasn't been already written. So he thought that the detective in his book should be dead and put back to earth to solve the mystery.

So the idea behind the Bobby Dollar series dates to at least 2002 when Johannes taped the talk. The first Bobby Dollar book, and the subject of our discussion, didn't appear for another ten years.

What does this say about Tad's writing process? Or ideas for novels in general?


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#2 2013-03-15 05:05:09

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 12, chps 22& 23 *SPOILERS*

You did it! New thread!

What might that say about Chronicles in Stone is what came to my mind when I read your question Firs.

Brilliant piece of information you digged up!

Now seriously should read these chapters.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#3 2013-06-15 08:20:53

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 12, chps 22& 23 *SPOILERS*

Now this is officially the longest time before opening a thread and first content post in a reread on this board ever.

I wonder if this is due to having to dicuss the first sex scene and hope that it is not ... would seem childish somehow.

So let's get to it. I truely enjoy reading these scenes. They're explicit but never misogynic (which is so often the case) and it is a coupling of equals, sex for sex's sake.
I also found Bobby's thoughts and doubts and the subsequent at that moment I just did not care convincing.

And then there is the funniest bit of dialogue in a sex scene I ever read:
"It apears that you chariot is no longer swinging low; Mr. Dollar." Her voice dropped down to a husky rasp. "What do you say, Wings? Would you like to ... carry me home again?"

What a hilarious quote of an old and famous spiritual given by a demon while having sex with an angel. This might be the best pun in the whole book.

The title cold hands obviously comes from Caz' story how she killed her husband and got her name (funny enough the exact quote cold hands is not in the chapter) a truly gruesome story that teaches us firstly that despite of the centuries living as a demon Caz has not lost her soul and secondly that the heavenly verdicts are not always just. And as Caz says herself If I'd had a clever advocate like you, I perhaps would have recieved a lesser sentence than eternity in the pits of fire - although I wonder if there were advocates in the Middle Ages who would have considered Caz' reasons as extenuating circumstances ...

Being done with this chapter I have to go and do stuff. I will certainly be back sooner than last time.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#4 2013-06-15 10:14:43

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32660
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 12, chps 22& 23 *SPOILERS*

I just noticed TDSoH on my TBR pile this morning and thought, "Oh, really should get back to that." So I suppose I really, really should, now.


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#5 2013-06-15 13:21:23

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 12, chps 22& 23 *SPOILERS*

That was prolly when Firs cyan and humble self talked about it in the Mint.
Smarch Hive mind

*nods sagely*


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#6 2013-06-15 14:38:08

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32660
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 12, chps 22& 23 *SPOILERS*

Must've been a delayed effect of the hive mind, because I was still asleep when you were talking. Glancing at the TBR pile happened while stumbling around half-awake with a watering can, which was around the time you were all leaving the Mint.


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#7 2013-07-09 23:22:11

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32660
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 12, chps 22& 23 *SPOILERS*

ylvs wrote:

Now this is officially the longest time before opening a thread and first content post in a reread on this board ever.

I wonder if this is due to having to dicuss the first sex scene and hope that it is not ... would seem childish somehow.

In a way, it is... because I couldn't think of anything to say about it. Although that's not about the sex, but simply because I can't understand Bobby (and Caz) here. Personally, if someone had just tried to kill me, I don't think I'd be inclined to jump into bed with them.

I wish I could think of more to say right now, but by now it has - again - been weeks since I read those two chapters, and I need to run off to work anyway. And I know I won't have time tonight, and after that, I'll have to say bye-bye to my laptop for a couple of days. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#8 2013-07-10 01:34:08

cyan
Mantis
From: Magic Loft of Design & Wonder
Registered: 2005-02-16
Posts: 26870

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 12, chps 22& 23 *SPOILERS*

Magpie wrote:

In a way, it is... because I couldn't think of anything to say about it. Although that's not about the sex, but simply because I can't understand Bobby (and Caz) here. Personally, if someone had just tried to kill me, I don't think I'd be inclined to jump into bed with them.

Yeah, that's pretty much my thoughts on this turn of events.  There were comments in previous chapters' thread that touched on the wheres and whyfors of attraction, that I understand.  But, to me, it felt sudden and inexplicable for the boom-chika-bow-wow.  Like Magpie, if someone just tried to kill me, it is incredibly unlikely for me to seriously consider that person as a potential sex partner, much less Let's do it right now!  Oh wait, I meant *after* we kinda sorta try to kill each other.  That said, I think that point-of-view is very relevant, and this story is told entirely from Bobby Dollar's point of view.  It's not only not inconsistent* for his (Bobby's) character, it's practically expected (dare I say, required?) considering urban fantasy and detective noir genre conventions.

I would have liked the sexual relationship between Bobby and Caz to be depicted with more depth, perhaps some observation on how physical intimacy does or does not affect emotional intimacy.  From Bobby's point of view, there's practically no introspection to go on, and there's no way to know what Caz truly thinks and feels.  Now, knowing Tad and his work, I'm sure he'll bring this together in a meaningful and significant way.  But to be honest, at this point in the book, I thought the sexual encounter was more than a little gratuitious.




*Read my triple negative and weep.  I did.


"Never underestimate the power and accuracy of a chicken-chucking trebuchet." ~ Tad

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Proud Member of the Log Brigade

 

#9 2013-07-10 08:15:16

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13270

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 12, chps 22& 23 *SPOILERS*

Is that so?

While I agree that I could not imagine myself going from killing to fucking (if that word is inappropriate feel free to edit fellow Matidae) in that pace I'm quite willing to follow Bobby here. Heck, I can not imagine myself in a lot of thing that happen to him, and after all I'm neither angel nor demon.
As for the lacking depht you talk of cyan, I think that it gets from pure lust to true emotional involvement quite quickly.

Hm, if nobody wants to add anymore - shall we go on?

*hopes she'll have some time to write and post before Stuttgart*

On the train, maybe?


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#10 2013-09-07 04:34:54

Peter
Pilgrim
From: Austria
Registered: 2001-08-23
Posts: 39207
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 12, chps 22& 23 *SPOILERS*

So we finally get to see much more of Caz - talking about her thoughts and identity, of course.

Her sentence to hell is - as noted above - very likely a mix of the times and not having had the best advocate. Killing her husband under those circumstances would probably not even get her to purgatory these days, but straight to heaven. Back then, a murderous, mad husband might only be a slight mitigating factor.

But even today, trying to kill her children, even in extreme emotional distress, would pose quite a problem. So she would still need a good advocate, but would very likely get away with purgatory now.

For the sex scene: *minor spoilers for MS&T and WotF) I think this is the first explicit scene Tad has written? MS&T was very mild on this and I do not remember the one in War of the Flowers as being very explicit either.
I do not perceive it as gratuitous at all, quite the opposite. There was a huge amount of tension between Caz and Bobby and it had to end in a fight or sex. Or both. Violence and sex have been described as being very close in many sources, so going from the fight to sex probably does make some sense, though I haven't tried this myself... (nor do I intend to). Maybe people can relate to it as "make up" sex, though most people leave the knives out of their quarrels.


May the birds who shelter in your branches never poop on the innocent. -Tad

 

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