Tad Williams' Message Board

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#26 2017-07-26 14:14:16

ajl3
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Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS


pixiejen wrote:

Reading the War of the Flowers right now and one of the names for the large, main forest in Faerie is Old Heart :D :D :D :D  (This is Aldheorte in Osten Ard - did I spell that right? It was from memory :O )

I was like.... you sly devil you :D


Anyway sorry just a little tidbit of info to the 'everything is connected' bit.

Jen, good find!

You know, there are many commonalities across all Tad-works.

I don't like the thought of a canonical link between Osten Ard and the fairly land in WotF, because those worlds aren't a good match, nor are Osten Ard and Otherland... but I see some possibilities between Osten Ard and Eion/Xand from Shadowmarch.

Like maybe Tzoja wanders through lands no mortal woman has set foot in, and one of the lands she comes to full of shadows and fog. She's granted an audience with the rulers. The ancient Qar tell her they have lived there since before their ancient brethren left, a millennium earlier, on eight great silverwood ships. Dun dun DUN!

(I realize this idea is a bit crackpot).

Shadowmarch has several connections to Osten Ard: Unbeing, as I quoted above, is directly referenced by name. Jijibo in TWC receives the title "the Dreamer," and Dreamers are in Shadowmarch as a "race" of very mysterious, very unexplained people who seem to hate light and the living.

In War of the Flowers, not only is the forest called Old Heart (which I didn't notice until you brought it up, pixie, nice find), but the disease spirit that's summoned near the end is described like this

Aeons in that cold dark place, in that nothingness inhabited only by presences like itself, battening on the flickering heat of its unfortunate neighbors (while avoiding those few whose emptiness was deeper and more powerful than its own) had all but wiped away what little consciousness it once had....A compulsion ran through it like a red scar.

This sounds similar to both the void described in Shadowmarch and the similar regard Ommu has for heat and drinking the "blood of your earth" because she's always cold.

Otherland is a different beast. I have trouble seeing the connection, too, though I will say the "info-beings" could easily be a scientific explanation (or vice versa) for otherworldly spirits from this void-place. Perhaps Unbeing is merely a twisted one. The "We can only hope it will remember us kindly" bit at the end of Sea of Silver Light suggests it is vastly powerful and could destroy us.

Tad's AMA questions reveal that we just might glimpse his version of Michael Moorcock's Tanelorn in the new trilogy: not being familiar with this, I looked it up and it's described as a city that exists

Wikipedia wrote:

in all dimensions, albeit not at the same time. The city's nature is to appear and disappear both in place and time throughout the multiverse, as it sees fit. Because it can never be destroyed, it is sometimes called The Eternal City. (Its inhabitants, however, may be killed.)

This could explain why the Sithi think the Lost Garden can never be found again and why the voyage took so very long, as well as the strange black sea (some sort of weird in-between worlds sea). Because if Amerasu was born on the ship and grew up on it, the trip may have taken hundreds of years: Tanahaya is described as just coming of age (i.e., our 18 or so) at several centuries. Also, in the quotes above Amerasu describes feeling the ocean spray and seeing the waves, so it rules out space travel pretty firmly, I would say.

So if the Lost Garden=Tanelorn, then someone in the new trilogy could quite easily (well, easily compared to taking a many year boat trip) stumble into it from anywhere in the world and that could certainly be Tzoja.

Last edited by ajl3 (2017-07-26 14:20:38)

 

#27 2017-07-26 23:49:30

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23103
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Kenan wrote:

Awesome, Tad! Now looking forward to it even more, if that was possible!

Same here!


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#28 2017-07-27 00:17:00

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23103
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

ajl3 wrote:

POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS

Shadowmarch has several connections to Osten Ard: Unbeing, as I quoted above, is directly referenced by name. Jijibo in TWC receives the title "the Dreamer," and Dreamers are in Shadowmarch as a "race" of very mysterious, very unexplained people who seem to hate light and the living.

Nice catch on "Unbeing"! That phrase certainly lends credence to a link between the two worlds.

I actually think Jijibo being a "Dreamer" is quite different than in Shadowmarch. If Dreamers are a "race", then Jijibo can't be one: he's a descendant of Utuk'ku. So there is a difference between Dreamers in Smarch and in Osten Ard.

Tad's AMA questions reveal that we just might glimpse his version of Michael Moorcock's Tanelorn in the new trilogy: not being familiar with this, I looked it up and it's described as a city that exists

Wikipedia wrote:

in all dimensions, albeit not at the same time. The city's nature is to appear and disappear both in place and time throughout the multiverse, as it sees fit. Because it can never be destroyed, it is sometimes called The Eternal City. (Its inhabitants, however, may be killed.)

This could explain why the Sithi think the Lost Garden can never be found again and why the voyage took so very long, as well as the strange black sea (some sort of weird in-between worlds sea). Because if Amerasu was born on the ship and grew up on it, the trip may have taken hundreds of years: Tanahaya is described as just coming of age (i.e., our 18 or so) at several centuries. Also, in the quotes above Amerasu describes feeling the ocean spray and seeing the waves, so it rules out space travel pretty firmly, I would say.

So if the Lost Garden=Tanelorn, then someone in the new trilogy could quite easily (well, easily compared to taking a many year boat trip) stumble into it from anywhere in the world and that could certainly be Tzoja.

I've known for decades that Tad is/was a reader of Moorcock, and so the possible connection between Venhya Do'sae and Tanelorn is something I've long suspected (this may even deserve its own thread, it's so important).

I also believe VD has many similarities to Valinor: Valinor was removed from the planes of Arda, and is no longer reachable... by men, anyway.

(Speaking of inter-dimensional travel, the journey to Jao e-Tinukai'i was inspired in part by Zelazny's Amber books.)

You mention Tzoja and the possibility that she could possibly go to VD, and that certainly seems possible, based on Aditu's prophecy. (The other major possibility I see is Jao e-Tinukai'i.. or whatever the one Aditu and Jiriki live in in called now... or another Gardenborn city). But if the Garden is impossible for the Gardenborn to reach, what magic is going to send a human there?

...Or is Tzoja a guinea pig, and they are using her as a test subject to see if the Garden is safe to return to?


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#29 2017-07-27 00:47:11

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS

I actually think Jijibo being a "Dreamer" is quite different than in Shadowmarch. If Dreamers are a "race", then Jijibo can't be one: he's a descendant of Utuk'ku. So there is a difference between Dreamers in Smarch and in Osten Ard.

I put that one in quotations due to honestly not knowing what they are. They may not even be alive, since they appear to hate both the humans and Qar.

Firsfron wrote:

I've known for decades that Tad is/was a reader of Moorcock, and so the possible connection between Venhya Do'sae and Tanelorn is something I've long suspected (this may even deserve its own thread, it's so important).

Sure, I'd be up for it! Or continuing to talk here. I don't know much about Moorcock, beyond knowing he exists and the basic gist of Elric and his Eternal Champion concept.

Firsfron wrote:

I also believe VD has many similarities to Valinor: Valinor was removed from the planes of Arda, and is no longer reachable... by men, anyway.

I'm not familiar with Tolkien's broader cosmology, either, beyond Valinor being the Good God (I think).

Firsfron wrote:

You mention Tzoja and the possibility that she could possibly go to VD, and that certainly seems possible, based on Aditu's prophecy. (The other major possibility I see is Jao e-Tinukai'i). But if the Garden is impossible for the Gardenborn to reach, what magic is going to send a human there?

...Or is Tzoja a guinea pig, and they are using her as a test subject to see if the Garden is safe to return to?

Well, the implication is that the Gardenborn all think it impossible to reach by traveling there physically. They talk about the fundamental shape of the earth changing, mysterious cataclysms, etc. It's quite possible that someone like Utuk'ku knows full well how to reach the Garden. I was going to post about this in the other thread tomorrow (and still will), but it's also possible that this is somehow her plan: call forth a part of the Lost Garden. It's possible that it's still full of Unbeing.

Whatever her plan is, she will now have:
-Hakatri, who both was burnt by a dragon and was a dragon killer
-living dragon
-Ruyan Ve's armor, which was used to steer the ships from the Garden

 

#30 2017-07-27 01:53:46

Kenan
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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8752
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

ajl3 wrote:

Firsfron wrote:

I also believe VD has many similarities to Valinor: Valinor was removed from the planes of Arda, and is no longer reachable... by men, anyway.

I'm not familiar with Tolkien's broader cosmology, either, beyond Valinor being the Good God (I think).

Valinor is Eden for Tolkien. The God is Eru/Iluvatar.
The elves lived there before some of them departed for Middle-Earth. Men never lived there. Yep, it's got similarities... what else could there be to connect them?


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#31 2017-07-27 02:09:34

Kenan
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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8752
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Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

I'll also say here that I dislike dimension travel in fantasy, and don't like the idea of Shadowmarch and MST occurring in the same neighbourhood. I doubt Tad means to go that way.
All similarities between the two book series have another logical explanation: they were created by the same (master) mind. So he took what worked with MST and tried to develop on it in Smarch.


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#32 2017-07-27 07:35:47

Outsider
Pilgrim
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2008-04-29
Posts: 177
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Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Kenan wrote:

I'll also say here that I dislike dimension travel in fantasy, and don't like the idea of Shadowmarch and MST occurring in the same neighbourhood. I doubt Tad means to go that way.
All similarities between the two book series have another logical explanation: they were created by the same (master) mind. So he took what worked with MST and tried to develop on it in Smarch.

I think the world of Osten Ard is much more grounded in "reality"* and science than other fantasy novels. Morgenes took steps to make sure Simon understood that magic was just based off of science and could be understood, studied and duplicated with enough effort. Whatever happened to the garden was environmental and cataclysmic. Another theory is that this world they live in is coming out of a climate cycle and is on the cooling side of that cycle. The poles are freezing up again capturing water, revealing land. The Garden may have been covered in a glacier, covered under hundreds of feet of ice.


* I put "reality" in quotes because it is fantasy after all.


"A witty saying proves nothing." -- Voltaire
"Bring back meat, we are not Zida'ya, to live on flowers and bee's milk." -- Kemme

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#33 2017-07-27 08:01:09

Kenan
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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8752
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Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Outsider wrote:

I think the world of Osten Ard is much more grounded in "reality"* and science than other fantasy novels. Morgenes took steps to make sure Simon understood that magic was just based off of science and could be understood, studied and duplicated with enough effort. Whatever happened to the garden was environmental and cataclysmic. Another theory is that this world they live in is coming out of a climate cycle and is on the cooling side of that cycle. The poles are freezing up again capturing water, revealing land. The Garden may have been covered in a glacier, covered under hundreds of feet of ice.


* I put "reality" in quotes because it is fantasy after all.

On one of my many re-reads I had an idea that it's not so much that the land (The Garden) is gone so much as it is inaccessible, and the same could be true in reverse for OA. What has made/unmade these continents accessible is up for discussion, but my immediate thought was to think of Tolkien's Valinor, which became inaccessible through the power of the Valar/gods.


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#34 2017-07-27 08:05:04

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23103
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Kenan wrote:

ajl3 wrote:

Firsfron wrote:

I also believe VD has many similarities to Valinor: Valinor was removed from the planes of Arda, and is no longer reachable... by men, anyway.

I'm not familiar with Tolkien's broader cosmology, either, beyond Valinor being the Good God (I think).

Valinor is Eden for Tolkien. The God is Eru/Iluvatar.
The elves lived there before some of them departed for Middle-Earth. Men never lived there. Yep, it's got similarities... what else could there be to connect them?

The elves bring a mystical tree with them from Valinor.
The Gardenborn bring Witchwood trees with them from Venhya Do'sae.

The elves sin by leaving Valinor, and cannot return there.
The Gardenborn bring Unbeing with them, and cannot return to the Garden.

The elves of Valinor are divided into three clans.
The Gardenborn, too, are divided into three clans.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#35 2017-07-27 08:07:59

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23103
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Kenan wrote:

I'll also say here that I dislike dimension travel in fantasy, and don't like the idea of Shadowmarch and MST occurring in the same neighbourhood. I doubt Tad means to go that way.

Oh, I agree about the MS&T/Shadowmarch crossover. It is just a theory.

All similarities between the two book series have another logical explanation: they were created by the same (master) mind. So he took what worked with MST and tried to develop on it in Smarch.

Yes, that is my belief as well.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#36 2017-07-30 18:17:27

Outsider
Pilgrim
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2008-04-29
Posts: 177
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

The Garden is probably a land that stil exists although no one, at least Sithi, would want to return.

TWC last paragraphs
"But you are not ready to rejoin that battle yet," Aditu told her. "Sleep, dear Tanahaya. Sleep. As we say, tomorrow the Garden may be closer."

But even as she let herself slide back toward exhausted sleep, Tanahaya knew that Aditu only meant to soothe her. The Garden was lost, as all the people knew. It would remain lost no matter what, or at least everything good it had contained was beyond reclaiming. That was the doom of her people.

I have a feeling that the Garden wasn't destroyed by some natural disaster, but maybe it was burned, or overrun by some infestation of dragons or zombie Tinukedaya. I kid on the latter. Or maybe not.

Last edited by Outsider (2017-07-30 18:19:24)


"A witty saying proves nothing." -- Voltaire
"Bring back meat, we are not Zida'ya, to live on flowers and bee's milk." -- Kemme

Follow me on Twitter

 

#37 2017-07-30 22:14:55

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23103
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Outsider wrote:

The Garden is probably a land that stil exists although no one, at least Sithi, would want to return.

TWC last paragraphs
"But you are not ready to rejoin that battle yet," Aditu told her. "Sleep, dear Tanahaya. Sleep. As we say, tomorrow the Garden may be closer."

But even as she let herself slide back toward exhausted sleep, Tanahaya knew that Aditu only meant to soothe her. The Garden was lost, as all the people knew. It would remain lost no matter what, or at least everything good it had contained was beyond reclaiming. That was the doom of her people.

I have a feeling that the Garden wasn't destroyed by some natural disaster, but maybe it was burned, or overrun by some infestation of dragons or zombie Tinukedaya. I kid on the latter. Or maybe not.

In HOWWL, it did seem as though the dragons were a major threat: Hamakho's great sword was left behind in the Garden, the Heart of What Was Lost was pried out of the hilt when the Garden was evacuated. So I can see dragons being a possibility.

Zombie Tinukeda'ya might be a problem... but couldn't Akhenabi stop them?


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#38 2017-07-31 00:18:38

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Outsider wrote:

The Garden is probably a land that stil exists although no one, at least Sithi, would want to return.

TWC last paragraphs
"But you are not ready to rejoin that battle yet," Aditu told her. "Sleep, dear Tanahaya. Sleep. As we say, tomorrow the Garden may be closer."

But even as she let herself slide back toward exhausted sleep, Tanahaya knew that Aditu only meant to soothe her. The Garden was lost, as all the people knew. It would remain lost no matter what, or at least everything good it had contained was beyond reclaiming. That was the doom of her people.

I have a feeling that the Garden wasn't destroyed by some natural disaster, but maybe it was burned, or overrun by some infestation of dragons or zombie Tinukedaya. I kid on the latter. Or maybe not.

In HOWWL, it did seem as though the dragons were a major threat: Hamakho's great sword was left behind in the Garden, the Heart of What Was Lost was pried out of the hilt when the Garden was evacuated. So I can see dragons being a possibility.

Zombie Tinukeda'ya might be a problem... but couldn't Akhenabi stop them?

I wonder if we will see that sword again. It sounds like a King Arthur "Sword in the Stone" parallel (it was slammed down into stone, somehow, and no one could pull it free.)

 

#39 2017-07-31 00:40:04

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23103
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

ajl3 wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Outsider wrote:

The Garden is probably a land that stil exists although no one, at least Sithi, would want to return.

I have a feeling that the Garden wasn't destroyed by some natural disaster, but maybe it was burned, or overrun by some infestation of dragons or zombie Tinukedaya. I kid on the latter. Or maybe not.

In HOWWL, it did seem as though the dragons were a major threat: Hamakho's great sword was left behind in the Garden, the Heart of What Was Lost was pried out of the hilt when the Garden was evacuated. So I can see dragons being a possibility.

Zombie Tinukeda'ya might be a problem... but couldn't Akhenabi stop them?

I wonder if we will see that sword again. It sounds like a King Arthur "Sword in the Stone" parallel (it was slammed down into stone, somehow, and no one could pull it free.)

It did sound that way to me as well. Will Tzoja travel where no mortal woman has stepped, to Venhya Do'sae, and pull the sword from the stone?


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#40 2017-07-31 01:42:04

Kenan
Pilgrim
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8752
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Outsider wrote:

The Garden is probably a land that stil exists although no one, at least Sithi, would want to return.

TWC last paragraphs
"But you are not ready to rejoin that battle yet," Aditu told her. "Sleep, dear Tanahaya. Sleep. As we say, tomorrow the Garden may be closer."

But even as she let herself slide back toward exhausted sleep, Tanahaya knew that Aditu only meant to soothe her. The Garden was lost, as all the people knew. It would remain lost no matter what, or at least everything good it had contained was beyond reclaiming. That was the doom of her people.

I have a feeling that the Garden wasn't destroyed by some natural disaster, but maybe it was burned, or overrun by some infestation of dragons or zombie Tinukedaya. I kid on the latter. Or maybe not.

In HOWWL, it did seem as though the dragons were a major threat: Hamakho's great sword was left behind in the Garden, the Heart of What Was Lost was pried out of the hilt when the Garden was evacuated. So I can see dragons being a possibility.

Zombie Tinukeda'ya might be a problem... but couldn't Akhenabi stop them?

If that is true, why on earth would they want to bring dragons with them on the ships?


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#41 2017-07-31 03:42:12

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Kenan wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Outsider wrote:

The Garden is probably a land that stil exists although no one, at least Sithi, would want to return.

I have a feeling that the Garden wasn't destroyed by some natural disaster, but maybe it was burned, or overrun by some infestation of dragons or zombie Tinukedaya. I kid on the latter. Or maybe not.

In HOWWL, it did seem as though the dragons were a major threat: Hamakho's great sword was left behind in the Garden, the Heart of What Was Lost was pried out of the hilt when the Garden was evacuated. So I can see dragons being a possibility.

Zombie Tinukeda'ya might be a problem... but couldn't Akhenabi stop them?

If that is true, why on earth would they want to bring dragons with them on the ships?

Well, Amerasu did say they were fools to carry over the same sins and mistakes of the Garden instead of starting fresh.

 

#42 2017-07-31 08:03:31

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23103
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

ajl3 wrote:

Kenan wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:


In HOWWL, it did seem as though the dragons were a major threat: Hamakho's great sword was left behind in the Garden, the Heart of What Was Lost was pried out of the hilt when the Garden was evacuated. So I can see dragons being a possibility.

Zombie Tinukeda'ya might be a problem... but couldn't Akhenabi stop them?

If that is true, why on earth would they want to bring dragons with them on the ships?

Well, Amerasu did say they were fools to carry over the same sins and mistakes of the Garden instead of starting fresh.

Yep!

We know one mistake was mistreating the Tinukeda'ya. But what were the other mistakes? Dragon-bringing could be another, although I believe dragons are also native to Osten Ard (Else why is the Greater Worm's Eye below Sesuad'ra? The Greater Worm is the dragon from which all other dragons are descended.)


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#43 2017-08-04 02:59:32

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Just a random thought: what if the Garden is not lost somewhere, but some-when?

So the Garden was on the same planet, not even an alternate Osten Ard planet or dimension, but is located in a different time?

 

#44 2017-08-04 15:07:27

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

I was just reading T.S. Eliot's "Four Quartets" and found what might be a funny (unconscious, probably) inspiration on Tad, since he has mentioned Eliot as a favorite before:

The detail of the pattern is movement,
As in the figure of the ten stairs.
Desire itself is movement
Not in itself desirable;
Love is itself unmoving,
Only the cause and end of movement,
Timeless, and undesiring
Except in the aspect of time
Caught in the form of limitation
Between un-being and being.
Sudden in a shaft of sunlight
Even while the dust moves
There rises the hidden laughter
Of children in the foliage
Quick now, here, now, always-
Ridiculous the waste sad time
Stretching before and after.

The entire poem seems to involve nature of time and existence, so it gave me a chuckle. I didn't know a better place so I figure I'd post it here.

Last edited by ajl3 (2017-08-04 15:07:57)

 

#45 2017-08-04 16:39:18

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23103
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

That could be an inspiration. The ones I wonder about are The Erl-Queen, a turn-of-the last-century novel by Nataly Von Eschstruth with its northern prince, and Goethe's Erl-King poem.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#46 2017-10-18 20:55:37

markerikson
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-10-18
Posts: 1

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

I have long assumed that the Garden was another planet, and that the eight ships were spaceships.  The Ocean Eternal and Indefinite sounded very much like space to me.  I believe there was even a passage where someone described it as being pitch black, but with glowing white wave-crests, which read to me as black void broken by bright stars.

 

#47 2017-10-19 03:45:44

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

markerikson wrote:

I have long assumed that the Garden was another planet, and that the eight ships were spaceships.  The Ocean Eternal and Indefinite sounded very much like space to me.  I believe there was even a passage where someone described it as being pitch black, but with glowing white wave-crests, which read to me as black void broken by bright stars.

You're correct about the blackness and white ("like pearls") crests and I assumed the same, but there's a part where Amaretsu describes the ocean and feeling the spray in her hair. That's why I now think it most likely they traveled from their world/universe/dimension on an actual sea but, similar to how we've seen them travel through a "tunnel" in the air in both TGAT and Witchwood Crown (and in the later's case, showing us firsthand what one of those trips are like definitely will pay off as foreshadowing). This could account for both methods of travel, with the black and pearl crests being the time spent between worlds/whatever and the ocean spray being when they were on actual sea.

 

#48 2017-10-19 07:20:34

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23103
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

markerikson wrote:

I have long assumed that the Garden was another planet, and that the eight ships were spaceships.  The Ocean Eternal and Indefinite sounded very much like space to me.  I believe there was even a passage where someone described it as being pitch black, but with glowing white wave-crests, which read to me as black void broken by bright stars.

Welcome, Mark! Great first post!

I'm with Ajl3 in that I think the ships were actual ships traveling in black water (or else how would Simon be able to identify the shapes in the woven cord art as ships, if they looked like space-ships?)

Ajl3, what scene in TWC has a tunnel like the one you've described?


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#49 2017-10-19 13:07:35

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

markerikson wrote:

I have long assumed that the Garden was another planet, and that the eight ships were spaceships.  The Ocean Eternal and Indefinite sounded very much like space to me.  I believe there was even a passage where someone described it as being pitch black, but with glowing white wave-crests, which read to me as black void broken by bright stars.

Welcome, Mark! Great first post!

I'm with Ajl3 in that I think the ships were actual ships traveling in black water (or else how would Simon be able to identify the shapes in the woven cord art as ships, if they looked like space-ships?)

Ajl3, what scene in TWC has a tunnel like the one you've described?

When Viyeki is traveling with the war party over Hern lands (Aelin's only chapter). I'm not sure I would say tunnel but it's described in a way that it's like what you and I, familiar with sci-fi, would call a tunnel in time and space or a wormhole or something similar (it's dark space around them but transparent or semi-transparent, so he can see clouds, etc. below them.)

 

#50 2017-10-19 20:51:23

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23103
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Ah, understood!


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

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