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#1 2013-03-06 13:22:22

Kenan
Pilgrim
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8741
Website

The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

What do we know, and what theories do you have? Is there a good thread somewhere that I have forgotten/missed?

Otherwise, it would be wonderful to hear what you, old dogs and new, think about it.


"exiled" means to be banished from one's home. It would suggest that the Sithi are victims of someone or something else banishing them. But who or what? Now the most famous banishment is of course Adam and Eve's banishment from the "Garden of Eden". It tickles me to wonder if some Sithi god has banished them for a "crime" they have committed. But it's difficult to imagine such a thing. The first thing that came to my mind when I heard about the exile is that some other race has come to claim their land and the Sithi had to flee, in a similar way to how they had to retreat from the humans in Osten Ard.



Here are some information drawn from the books:

Jarnauga speaks of Ineluki and his brother Hakatri who was gravely wounded by the dragon. They put Hakatri in a boat with a servant and sailed west "(hoping) there was a land beyond the setting sun" - So there's an "Ultimate West" out there as well as the Sithi's origin, the "Uttermost East".

The first MEN came to Osten Ard from some "lost west", perhaps coming across a landbridge that no longer

exists (Morgenes speaking to Simon). They were "driven out". The Rimmersmen also came from the "near-forgotten" west (same conversation). And Binabik reveals more: Some tragedy or "dire happening" made them (Rimmersmen) leave "Ijsgard" and come settling to Osten Ard, afer having come seasonally for plunder before.

Amerasu to the Sithi: "We fled out of the Uttermost East, thinking to escape that Unbeing that overwhelmed our Garden-land". She goes on to say they thought to escape that "shadow" but they brought a piece of it with them. That that shadow is a part of the Sithi. And finally: "that shadow that is death" and "We cannot ignore the knowledge of Unbeing".

Yis-Fidri says to Maegwin that the Tinukeda'ya came from the Garden and can never return.

Amerasu calls the land that they have left behind "Venyha Do'sae"

Amerasu to Hakatri (as overheard by Simon). The Sithi believed that by reaching Osten Ard they have "escaped the shadow of Unebing" and won their way to freedom. But they discovered they had replaced that shadow with another "and this shadow is growing inside of us" (suggesting that the first one wasn't). She also thinks that the Sithi's injustice towards the Tinukeda'ya may have been the seed that made the shadow begin to grow in Osten Ard.

The Dwarrows to Maegwin and Eolair: The ships brought them and the Sithi safe out of "destruction" and they would otherwise have passed into "Unbeing".

Simon interpretes the ribbon-story on his way into Jao e-Tinukai'i: "Simon could almost see the dark stain that began to spread through the people's lives and hearts, the way it sickened them. Brother fought brother, and what had been a place of unmatched beauty was blighted beyond hope.

Then there's the story of what made the two families split, the Romeo and Juliet story

that happened in the Garden (Geloe to Simon). Interesting, because Aditu seems to contradict this and say that the story took place in Osten ard after the Mortals arrived there. She specifically says it's what drove the two families apart.

Jiriki to Simon. When the Sithi comes to Osten Ard, most of the world was ocean.

Then some cataclysm has changed the face of the world so that new lands were created, and thus the Sithi can never go back.

Aditu to Isgrimnur: Ineluki was the "brightest burning flame" ever kindled in Osten Ard, and he might have been able to lead the Sithi out of exile and back into the light of the living world. (If so, the Garden can't be completely lost).

Last edited by Kenan (2013-03-06 13:24:03)


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#2 2013-03-06 13:47:03

Kenan
Pilgrim
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8741
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

I also made a very hasty and basic interpretation of the world map here.


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#3 2013-03-06 13:51:02

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32639
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

I'll have to see if I can come up with something intelligent to say on this topic. MST thoughts are still simmering in my brain, I never know what will float to the surface next.


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#4 2013-03-07 08:59:27

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23099
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Kenan,

Good topic. I'll try to post a response tonight sometime.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#5 2013-03-07 09:24:12

Kenan
Pilgrim
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8741
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

It takes a while to wrap one's head around all that subtle information, if it's at all possible.

I discovered when I was digging for information just how difficult it is to make sure I don't add heaps of lines that actually talks about something else. Everything is interconnected in such a beautiful way....


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#6 2013-03-07 23:03:10

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23099
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

I think it's first important to examine what was actually said in the text. Sometimes, it's easy to forget what was actually said. Below are the passages about Venyha Do'sae, the Lost Garden, that I could find in the text. These probably aren't all of them, but they are the ones I could find tonight.

It's important to note that the Gardenborn refer to three separate "exiles": the Flight from the Garden, the Sundering of the Families, and the Exile of the Sithi from Asu'a.

SOF, Ch. 18, "The Lost Garden" wrote:

"Beloved Hakatri, my beautiful son," the woman's voice said, "how I miss you. I know you are beyond hearing or beyond replying, but I cannot help speaking as though you were before me. Too many times have the People danced the year's end since you went into the West. [...] In some ways, it seems only the turning of a handful of moon-faces since the Two Families left Venyha Do'sae, the land of our birth across the Great Sea Ah, Hakatri, if only you could have seen our boats as they swept across the fierce waves! Of silverwood they were crafted, with sails of bright cloth, brave and beautiful as flying fish. As a child I rode in the bow as the waves parted, and I was surrounded by a cloud of scintillant, sparkling seafoam! Then, when our boats touched the soil of this land, we cried. We had escaped the shadow of Unbeing and won our way to freedom.
    "But instead, Hakatri, we found that we had not truly escaped shadow at all, but only replaced one sort with another, and this shadow was growing inside us.
    "Of course, it was long before we realized it. The new shadow grew slowly, first in our hearts, then in our eyes and hands, but now the evil it caused has become greater than anyone could have suspected. It is stretching across all this land that we loved, the land to which we hastened long ago as to the arms of a lover, or as a son to the arms of his mother.
    "Our new land has become as shadowed as the old one, Hakatri, and that is our fault. But now your brother, who was ruined by that shadow, has himself become an even more terrible darkness. He casts a pall over all he once loved.

From this passage we learn that Amerasu, who was born on one of the eight ships, rode in the bow as a child, and remembers it: it seems as though she was not an infant. So the voyage took a very long time.
We also learn that the Garden was shadowed, and that the Gardenborn brought that shadow with them. Was it the shadow of discrimination? Unbeing? War? It's something that started in their hearts, Amerasu says.

I personally believe it is the Shadow of Hatred. The Gardenborn fled the East, already hating one another on the journey, and chaining Ruyan Ve when they arrived. They brought the Shadow with them.

Key is the passage where Amerasu says, "now the evil [the shadow] caused has become greater than anyone could have suspected. It is stretching across all this land that we loved [...]  now your brother, who was ruined by that shadow, has himself become an even more terrible darkness. He casts a pall over all he once loved."

Ineluki is the embodiment of all hate, repulsed only by Simon, who refuses to hate, at the end.

SOF, Ch. 18, cont. wrote:

I spoke a moment ago of the Two Families, as though we twain were the only survivors of Venyha Do'sae, but it was the boats of the Tinukeda'ya that brought us across the Great Sea. Neither we Zida'ya nor our brethren the Hikeda'ya would have lived to reach this land had it not been for Ruyan the Navigator and his people; but to our shame, we treated the Ocean Children as badly here as we had in the garden-lands beyond the sea. When most of Ruyan's folk at last departed, going forth into this new land on their own, that, I think, was when the shadow first began to grow. Oh, Hakatri, we were mad to bring those old injustices to this new place, wrongs that should have died with our home in the Uttermost East. ..."

From this passage, we learn that the Zida'ya and the Hikeda'ya would have died without the Tinukeda'ya and their ships. So, although your map, Kenan, shows the Tinukeda'ya on a separate island, I actually believe that the island they refer to, and the Garden, are one and the same: since the Tinukeda'ya were the servants of the other two clans, they probably served them from the same land-mass. And it says the Tinukeda'ya specifically were treated poorly in the Garden. And below there are more indications...

SOF, Ch. 18, cont. wrote:

And although you have gone away, Hakatri - to death or the Ultimate West, I know not which -[...] When you went away at last into the West in search of heart's-ease, [Ineluki] became cold and discontented.
    "I will not tell you all the story of the maraudings of the ship-men, those fierce mortals from across the sea. Some hint of their coming you had before you went away, and some would say that it was these Rimmersmen who struck the greatest blow against us, for they threw down Asu'a, our great house, and those of us who survived were driven into exile.[...]
    "Still others would say our shadow first grew in the deeps of time, in Venyha Do'sae, the Lost Garden, and that we brought it with us in our hearts. They would say that even those born here in our new land - like you, my son - came into the world with that shadow already staining your innermost selves, so that there has been no innocence anywhere since the world was young.

In this passage, Amerasu speaks of the West like she does of the East: "Ultimate" and far away. She also speaks of the third exile (my bolding).

SOF, ch. 19, "Children of the Navigator" wrote:

"The Ocean Indefinite and Eternal," said Yis-fidri with a gesture at the spiky stone waves. "Our birth-home was an island in the sea that surrounds all. We Tinukeda'ya built those craft that took all the Gardenborn across that water. Ruyan Ve, the greatest of our folk, steered the ships and brought us here to this land, safe out of destruction." A light came to the dwarrow's saucerlike eyes, a note of triumph to his voice. He wagged his head firmly, as though to emphasize the importance of what he said. "Without us, no ships would have been. All, both masters and servants, would have passed into Unbeing."

This confirms what Amerasu said earlier, about Ruyan Ve leading the three clans across the sea. It also underscores the idea that the three clans lived on the same landmass, since there were already "masters and servants".

Also, we get a name for the ocean between Venyha Do'sae and Osten Ard: the Ocean Indefinite and Eternal, which is different than the name of the ocean between Nabban and Hernystir, which is called the Great Green.


SOF, ch. 28, "Sparks" wrote:

"We fled out of the Uttermost East, thinking to escape that Unbeing that overwhelmed our Garden-land.[...] When we reached this new land, we thought we had escaped that shadow. But a piece of it came with us. That stain, that shadow, is part of us?just as the mortal men and women of Osten Ard cannot escape the shadow of their own dying.
    "We are an old people. We do not fight the unfightable. That is why we fled Venyha Do'sae, rather than be unmade in a fruitless struggle. But the curse of our race is not that we refuse to throw down our lives in purposeless defiance of the great shadow, but that we instead clasp the shadow to ourselves and hug it tightly, gleefully, nursing it as we would a child.
    "We brought the shadow with us. Perhaps no living, reasoning thing can be without such shadow, but we Zida'ya -despite our lives, beside which the spans of mortals are like fireflies - still we cannot ignore that shadow that is death. We cannot ignore the knowledge of Unbeing. Instead, we carry it with us like a brooding secret.

This passage again talks about the Gardenborn bringing the Shadow with them across the seas.

TGAT1, Ch. 2, "Chains of Many Kinds" wrote:

The Niskie nodded. Her fine white hair fluttered around her face. "Sometimes, at night, when I am up on the deck alone and singing, I feel as though I am crossing the Ocean Indefinite and Eternal, the one my people crossed to come to this land. They say that ocean was black as tar, but the wave crests glowed like pearl."

This is one of the passages that gives rise to the theory that the Gardenborn are from Outer Space, crossing a great black "ocean" for many years, a sea with glowing white things floating in it. But I think it can be disproved...

Also, another mention of the ocean the Gardenborn crossed, which Gan Itai states is not the same one as the Great Green: "that ocean" was as black as tar.

TGAT1, Ch. 3, "East of the World" wrote:

"As to the parting of Sithi and Norn," [Geloe] continued, ignoring his question, "mortals came into it, but also it is
    told that the two houses were uneasy allies even in the land of their origin."
    "The Garden?"
    "As they call it. I do not know the stories well; such tales have never been of much interest to me. I have always worked with the things that are before me, things that can be touched and seen and spoken to. There was a woman in it, a Sitha-woman, and a man of the Hikeda'ya as well. She died. He died. Both families were bitter. It is old business, boy. If you see your friend Jiriki again, ask him. It is the history of his own family, after all."

This passage implies, but does not actually state, that Drukhi and Nenaisu died in the Garden. Later, we'll get some clarification.

TGAT1, Ch. 3, ctd. wrote:

Jiriki had told Simon about the coming of the Gardenborn to Osten Ard. In those days, the Sitha had said, most of the world had been covered in ocean, just as the west still was. Jiriki's folk had sailed out of the rising sun, across unimaginable distances, to land on the verdant coastline of a world innocent of humanity, a vast island in a great surrounding sea. Some later cataclysm, Jiriki had implied, had men changed the face of the world; the land had risen and the seas had drained away to east and south, leaving new mountains and meadows behind them. Thus, the Gardenborn could never return to their lost home.

Very Tolkien-like, here, with the Uttermost East now unreachable due to a cataclysmic event which raised the land and drained the ocean (at least partially). And the Garden is now truly Lost.

TGAT1, Ch. 7 "Storm King's Anvil" wrote:

The Lightless Ones were chanting somewhere in the depths of Stormspike, their hollow voices tracing the shapes of songs that had been old and already forbidden back in the Lost Garden, Venyha Do'Sae.

Not much here, except the fact that certain things that were forbidden in The Garden were taken to Osten Ard and are now practiced by the Hikeda'ya. Could this be part of "the shadow" that was brought over?

TGAT1, Ch. 15, "Lake of Glass" wrote:

The company did not stop to rest even as the red glow of sunset drained from the sky and stars glistened between the tree branches overhead. Nor did the horses need more than starlight to find their way along the old roads, though all those tracks were covered with the growth of years. Mortal and earthly the horses were, made only of flesh and blood, but their sires had been of the stock of Venyha Do'sae, brought out of the Garden in the great flight. When the native horses of Osten Ard still ran untamed and frightened on the grasslands, ignorant of hand or bridle, the forebears of these Sithi steeds had ridden to war against the giants, or carried messengers along the roads that spanned from one end to the other of the bright empire.

So the Venyhada'ya brought their horses to Osten Ard, too.

TGAT1, Ch. 20, "Travelers and Messengers" wrote:

"Why did the Norns go into the north?"
    Aditu bent and picked a sprig of some curling vine, white-flowered and dark-leaved. She knotted it in her hair so that it hung against her cheek. "The two families, Zida'ya and Hikeda'ya, had a disagreement. It concerned mortals. Utuk'ku's folk felt your kind to be animals - worse than animals, actually, since we of the Garden do not kill any creature if we can avoid doing so. The Dawn Children did not agree with the Cloud Children. There were other things, too." She lifted her head to the moon. 'Then Nenais'u and Drukhi died. That was the day the shadow fell, and it has never been lifted."

This passage shows that Drukhi and Nenais'u died in Osten Ard: the Zida'ya and the Hikeda'ya disagreed about the mortals, then the couple died. Since the mortals and the Gardenborn did not meet until both arrived in Osten Ard, the pair could not have been killed in the Garden.

TGAT1, Ch. 22. "Whispers in Stone" wrote:

"We did - in part - but the last of the Zida'ya had left this place long before my birth." Jiriki's golden eyes were wide, as though he could not tear his gaze from the roofs of the cavern city. "When the Tinukeda'ya severed their fates from ours, Jenjiyana of the Nightingales declared in her wisdom that we should give this place to the Navigator's Children, in partial payment of the debt we owed them." He frowned and shook his head, hair moving loosely about his shoulders. "Year-Dancing House, at least, remembered something of honor. She also gave to them Hikehikayo in the north, and sea-collared Jhina-T'senei, which has long since disappeared beneath the waves."
    Eolair struggled to make sense of the barrage of unfamiliar names. "Your people gave this to the Tinukeda'ya?" he asked. "The creatures that we called domhaini? The dwarrows?"
    "Some were called that," Jiriki nodded. He turned his bright stare on the count. "But they are not 'creatures,' Count Eolair. They came from The Garden that is Lost, just as my people did. We made the mistake of thinking them less than us then. I wish to avoid it now."
    "I meant no insult," said Eolair. "But I met them, as I told you. They were ... strange. But they were kind to us, too."
    "The Ocean Children were ever gentle." Jiriki began to descend the staircase. "That is why my people brought them, I fear?because they felt they would be tractable servants."
    Eolair hastened to catch up to him. The Sitha moved with assured swiftness, walking far nearer to the edge than the count would have dared, and never looking down. "What did you mean, 'some of them were called that'?" Eolair asked. "Were there Tinukeda'ya who were not dwarrows?"
    "Yes. Those who lived here - the dwarrows as you call them - were a smallish group who had split off from the main tribe. The rest of Ruyan's folk stayed close to water, since the oceans were always dear to their hearts. Many of them became what the mortals called 'sea-watchers.' "
    "Niskies?" In his long career, during which he had traveled often in southern waters. Eclair had met many sea-watchers. "They still exist. But they look nothing like the dwarrows!"
    Jiriki paused to let the count catch up, and thereafter, perhaps out of courtesy, kept his pace slower. "That was the Tinukeda'ya's blessing as well as their curse. They could change themselves, over time, to better fit the place that they lived: there is a certain mutability in their blood and bones. I think that if the world were to be destroyed by fire, the Ocean Children would be the only ones to survive. Before long, they would be able to eat smoke and swim in hot ashes."[...] "But if your people gave the dwarrows - the Tinukeda'ya - this place, why are they so afraid of you? When the lady Maegwin and myself first came here and met them, they were terrified that we might be servants of yours come to drag them back."
    Jiriki stopped. He seemed to be transfixed by something down below. When he turned to Eolair once more, it was with an expression so pained that even his alien features did not disguise it. 'They are right to be frightened, Count Eolair. Amerasu, our wise one who has just been taken from us, called our dealings with the Tinukeda'ya our great shame. We did not treat them well, and we kept from them things that they deserved to know ... because we thought they would make better servants if they labored in ignorance." He made a gesture of frusration. "When Jenjiyana, Year-Dancing House's mistress, gave them this place in the distant past, she was opposed by many of the Houses of Dawn. There are those among the Zida'ya, even to this day, who feel we should have kept Ruyan Ve's children as servants. They are right to fear, your friends."

This long-ish passage shows that the Sitha woman at the Stone of Farewell, the one opposing Utuk'ku, was Jenjiyana of the Nightengales. Three of the Cities were given to the Tinukeda'ya.

But more importantly, Jiriki says, "They came from The Garden that is Lost, just as my people did." So they are from the same land-mass.

TGAT1, Ch. 23 "The Sounding of the Horn" wrote:

"It is prise'a?Ever-fresh." Aditu lifted the slender vine to show Simon the pale blue flower. "Even after it has been picked, it does not wilt, not until the season has passed. It is said that it came from the Garden on our people's boats."

Not only did the Gardenborn bring horses, they also brought flowers.

TGAT1, Ch. 24, "A Sky Full of Beasts" wrote:

Despite their great cities, mere bat-haunted ruins now if Mezutu'a was any indication, they were people who were not rooted to a place. From the way Jiriki had talked about the Garden, their primordial home, it seemed clear that despite their eon-long tenancy in Osten Ard they still felt themselves to be little more than travelers in this land. They lived in their own heads, in their songs and memories.

TGAT1, Ch, 26, "A Gift For the Queen" wrote:

"That is what tore asunder the Zida'ya and Hikeda'ya," she said. When he looked up, her gold-flecked gaze had become hard. "We have learned from that terrible lesson."
    "What do you mean?"
    "It was the death of Drukhi, the son of Utuk'ku and her husband Ekimeniso Blackstaff, that drove the families apart. Drukhi loved and married Nenais'u, the Nightingale's daughter." She raised her hand and made a gesture like a book being closed. "She was killed by mortals in the years before Tumet'ai was swallowed by the ice. It was an accident. She was dancing in the forest when a mortal huntsman was drawn to the glimmer of her bright dress. Thinking he saw a bird's plumage, he loosed an arrow. When her husband Drukhi found her, he went mad." Aditu bent her head, as though it had happened only a short while before.
    After she had gone some moments without speaking, Simon asked: "But how did that drive the families apart? And what does that have to do with marrying whoever you want?"
        "It is a very long story, Seoman - perhaps the longest that our people tell, excepting only the flight from the Garden and our coming across the black seas to this land." She pushed at one of the shent-stones with her finger. "At that time, Utuk'ku and her husband ruled all the Gardenborn - they were the keepers of the Year-Dancing groves. When their son fell in love with Nenais'u, daughter of Jenjiyana and her mate Initri, Utuk'ku furiously opposed it. Nenais'u's parents were of our Zida'ya clan - although it had a different name in those long-ago days. They were also of the belief that the mortals, who had come to this land after the Gardenborn had arrived, should be permitted to live as they would, as long as they did not make war on our people."
    She made another, more intricate arrangement of the stones on the board before her. "Utuk'ku and her clan felt that the mortals should be pushed back across the ocean, and that those who would not leave should be killed, as some mortal farmers crush the insects they find on their crops. But since the two great clans and the other smaller clans allied with one or the other were so evenly divided, even Utuk'ku's position as Mistress of Year-Dancing House did not permit her to force her will on the rest. You see, Seoman, we have never had 'kings' and 'queens' as you mortals have.
    "In any case, Utuk'ku and her husband were fiercely angry that their son had married a woman of what they considered to be the traitorous, mortal-loving clan that opposed them. When Nenais'u was slain, Drukhi went mad and swore that he would kill every mortal he could find. The men of Nenais'u's clan restrained him, although they were, in their own way, as bitterly angry and horrified as he. When the Yasira was called, the Gardenborn could come to no decision, but enough feared what might happen if Drukhi was free that they decided he must be confined - something that had never happened this side of the Ocean." She sighed. "It was too much for him, too much for his madness, to be held prisoner by his own people while those he deemed his wife's murderers went free. Drukhi made himself die."
    Simon was fascinated, although he could tell from Aditu's expression how sad the story was to her. "Do you mean he killed himself?"
    "Not as you think of it, Seoman. No, rather Drukhi just .. stopped living. When he was found lying dead in the Si'injan'dre Cave, Utuk'ku and Ekimeniso took their clan and went north, swearing that they would never again live with Jenjiyana's people."
    "But first everyone went to Sesuad'ra," he said. "They went to Leavetaking House and they made their pact. What I saw during my vigil in the Observatory."
    She nodded. "From what you have said, I believe you had a true vision of the past, yes."
    "And that is why Utuk'ku and the Norns hate mortals?" he asked.
    "Yes. But they also went to war with some of the first mortals in Hernystir, back long before Hern gave it the name. In that fighting, Ekimeniso and many of the other Hikeda'ya lost their lives. So they have other grudges to nurse, as well."
    Simon sat back, wrapping his arms about his knees. "I didn't know. Morgenes or Binabik or someone told me that the battle of the Knock was the first time that mortals had killed Sithi."
    "Sithi, yes- the Zida'ya. But Utuk'ku's people clashed with mortals several times before the shipmen came from over the western sea and changed everything." She lowered her head. "So you can see," Aditu finished, "why we of the Dawn Children are careful not to say that someone is above someone else. Those are words that mean tragedy to us."

TGAT2, Ch. 1, "Tears and Smoke" wrote:

"Morgenes tells that there is something in each sword that is not of Osten Ard - not of our earth. Thorn is made from a stone that fell from the sky. Bright-Nail, which was once Minneyar, was forged from the iron keel of Elvrit's ship that came over the sea from the West. Those are lands that our ships can no longer find." He cleared his throat. "And Sorrow is of both iron and the Sithi witchwood, two things that are inimical. The witchwood itself, Aditu tells me, came over as seedlings from the place that her people call the Garden."
[...]

Aditu hesitated a moment longer, then stepped back and lowered her head. "As you wish, Valada Geloe. Farewell, Ruyan's Own. Farewell... my friend. Sinya'a du-n'sha e-d'treyesa inro."
[...]
       "Kei-vishaa. In truth, it is not just a poison: we Gardenborn use it in the Grove when it is time to dance the year's end. But it can also be wielded to bring a long, heavy sleep. It was brought from Venyha Do'sae; my people used it when they first came here, to remove dangerous animals?some of them huge creatures... whose like have long passed from Osten Ard - from the places where we wished to build our cities. When I smelted it, I knew that something was wrong. We Zida'ya have never used it for anything except the year-dancing ceremonies."

TGAT2, Ch. 3, "Windows Like Eyes" wrote:

"A few days," agreed Jiriki. "We Zida'ya are not used to fighting against a castle held by enemies? I do not think we have done it since the last evil days back in Venyha Do'sae."

This passage also confirms that Nenais'u was killed by a mortal man, and hence the Gardenborn parted ways in Osten Ard, not in the Lost Garden.  Also, we get the "Ruyan's Own" salad dressing reference, that hints that Geloe has some link to the Tinukeda'ya. The Gardenborn also brought Kei-vishaa and witchwood saplings over on the ships from the Garden. And the Ultimate West is no longer locatable, either. Or, at least not easily.

TGAT2 Ch. 23, "The Rose Unmade" wrote:

"We are all Ocean Children," said the dwarrow gravely. "Some decided to stay near the sea which forever separates us from the Garden of our birth. Others chose more hidden and secretive ways, like the earth's dark places and the task of shaping stone. You see, unlike our cousins the Zida'ya and Hikeda'ya, we Children of the Navigator can shape ourselves just as we shape other things."

Yis-fidri states the dwarrows were born in the Garden.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#7 2013-03-07 23:17:02

cyan
Mantis
From: Magic Loft of Design & Wonder
Registered: 2005-02-16
Posts: 26870

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Firs, I shall expect you to recite this word-for-word when we meet up with Tad in a few weeks.


"Never underestimate the power and accuracy of a chicken-chucking trebuchet." ~ Tad

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#8 2013-03-08 00:53:37

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
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Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

cyan wrote:

Firs, I shall expect you to recite this word-for-word when we meet up with Tad in a few weeks.

Psssh. I'll just print it out. ;)


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#9 2013-03-08 01:26:03

cyan
Mantis
From: Magic Loft of Design & Wonder
Registered: 2005-02-16
Posts: 26870

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

cyan wrote:

Firs, I shall expect you to recite this word-for-word when we meet up with Tad in a few weeks.

Psssh. I'll just print it out. ;)

The operative word here is 'recite'.  And seeing as I'll be right there with you, do you truly believe that your dead-tree edition would survive?


"Never underestimate the power and accuracy of a chicken-chucking trebuchet." ~ Tad

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Proud Member of the Log Brigade

 

#10 2013-03-08 13:38:43

Kenan
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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8741
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

That's a lot to reply to, and I just read it. But here are two things I'm thinking of:
Why does Geloe say the separation of the families began in the Garden? I suppose Drukhi and Nenais'u were wed (or equivalent) in the Garden, but that the tragedy with the mortals happened after, when they are in Osten Ard. So the dissension began with their union, and came to completion with Nenais'u's death.

Why cannot the Garden include an island for the Tinukeda'ya? Is there anything to suggest it has to be one landmass? I could see how the Tinukeda'ya evolved alone on an island, and later came in contact with the other clans, and were made to be servants. I don't think servants would be strong enough as a race to become the master sailors.


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#11 2017-07-25 14:39:59

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

I'm summoning this thread from the Shores of Unposting.

 

#12 2017-07-25 14:53:06

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23099
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Kenan wrote:

That's a lot to reply to, and I just read it. But here are two things I'm thinking of:
Why does Geloe say the separation of the families began in the Garden? I suppose Drukhi and Nenais'u were wed (or equivalent) in the Garden, but that the tragedy with the mortals happened after, when they are in Osten Ard. So the dissension began with their union, and came to completion with Nenais'u's death.

Sorry. I just saw this.

I suspect that Utuk'ku and Jenjiyana were rivals even back in the Garden.

Why cannot the Garden include an island for the Tinukeda'ya? Is there anything to suggest it has to be one landmass? I could see how the Tinukeda'ya evolved alone on an island, and later came in contact with the other clans, and were made to be servants. I don't think servants would be strong enough as a race to become the master sailors.

The Tinukeda'ya are described as cousins to the Sithi/Norns, so they cannot have evolved 100% independently: at some point, they had to have shared an ancestor... is my interpretation.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#13 2017-07-25 14:56:07

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23099
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

ajl3 wrote:

I'm summoning this thread from the Shores of Unposting.

Oh, hail thee! Thou hast summoned the Lost Garden, though it had long ago disappeared from the sight of Mankind. Let us hope we shall discover the ancient Mysteries of this Unmade, yet still sanctified, land.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#14 2017-07-25 16:07:31

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

So, to add to this, HOWWL adds to what Geloe says about the split via Ayaminu: it began in the Garden. Additionally she says that Druhki's death and even mortals were just an excuse - it would have happened anyway given time. So, at my best guess, Utuk'ku was going power mad and/or already grieving for the Garden before anything else?

 

#15 2017-07-25 16:11:06

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23099
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

ajl3 wrote:

So, to add to this, HOWWL adds to what Geloe says about the split via Ayaminu: it began in the Garden. Additionally she says that Druhki's death and even mortals were just an excuse - it would have happened anyway given time. So, at my best guess, Utuk'ku was going power mad and/or already grieving for the Garden before anything else?

That's what I think, too. Because if Utuk'ku/Ekimeniso were really fair-minded individuals who just cracked when their child was suddenly killed, why did they enslave the Tinukeda'ya centuries earlier? It seems to me they were always power-hungry. At least Utuk'ku, but it seems like Ekimeniso went along with it, too.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#16 2017-07-25 20:09:39

Ad1tu
Pilgrim
From: Buffysadharc
Registered: 2004-02-22
Posts: 6325

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

So, seriously, how long did this journey across the ocean take?? I'm not going to pull that bit out from Firs's dissertation, but we know Amerasu is called Shipborn, and apparently she was a self-described child during the voyage. Even if we assume Sithi infancy is roughly the same amount of time as human infancy, that trip must have been 3-5 years, at least! Magellan-Elcano made it around the Earth in 3 or so years. And they didn't have Ruyan the Navigator with them!

Maybe Ruyan fooled them. Maybe he did bring them all the way back to the Garden, and it wasn't that Unbeing followed them, it was just still there. But: Why didn't they recognize any landmarks, and where did the humans come from... Hmm.


If you should do what makes you happy, and no one can tell you what makes you happy, then that means no one can tell you what to do!

Tamishu's Ramblings

 

#17 2017-07-25 22:01:12

Outsider
Pilgrim
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2008-04-29
Posts: 177
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Ad1tu wrote:

So, seriously, how long did this journey across the ocean take?? I'm not going to pull that bit out from Firs's dissertation, but we know Amerasu is called Shipborn, and apparently she was a self-described child during the voyage. Even if we assume Sithi infancy is roughly the same amount of time as human infancy, that trip must have been 3-5 years, at least! Magellan-Elcano made it around the Earth in 3 or so years. And they didn't have Ruyan the Navigator with them!

Maybe Ruyan fooled them. Maybe he did bring them all the way back to the Garden, and it wasn't that Unbeing followed them, it was just still there. But: Why didn't they recognize any landmarks, and where did the humans come from... Hmm.

What if they weren't just traveling across an ocean in space (not outer space, but physical space) but also in time or parallel universe? Trying to find a new land in a bother world, quite literally, untouched by unbeing. A journey that could have taken them centuries


"A witty saying proves nothing." -- Voltaire
"Bring back meat, we are not Zida'ya, to live on flowers and bee's milk." -- Kemme

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#18 2017-07-25 22:31:05

ajl3
Pilgrim
Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 360

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

To add to the quotes about Unbeing from the books above, here's one from TGAT2 that's not directly talking about it but clearly is alluding to it, via Maegwin's breakdown where she thinks the Sithi are gods, etc.:

TGAT2 wrote:

And so the gods had ridden across the broad white fields of Heaven, searching for Scadach, the hole into outer darkness. And they had found it. Cold and black it was, bounded in stone quarried from eternity's darkest recesses, just as the lore-masters had taught her--and full of the gods' direst enemies.

She had never believed that such things could exist, creatures of pure evil, shining vessels of emptiness and despair. But she had seen one stand on the ageless wall of Scadach, heard its lifeless voice prophesy the destruction of gods and mortals alike. All that was wrong lay behind that wall...and now the gods were trying to bring the wall tumbling down.

Interestingly, "Outer Darkness" is also a term that the Norns seem to know and once again it is applied to something involving Akhenabi (who is the shining vessel of emptiness with the lifeless voice in the above quote). Suno'ku uses it, calling the Akhenabi-possessed singer a "creature of outer darkness."

We also might want to consider Shadowmarch, since some people think the works are connected and Tad has suggested all of his books are connected. In volume 2, "Unbeing" is directly referenced by name something like four times. Here's the most notable occurrence:

Shadowplay wrote:

He could see it now, at least its faint lineaments. It was a space only slightly smaller than the endless dark through which he had been falling, and only a little more bright, but it had shape, it had boundaries. At the center of it he saw what she had called a road, an arching span of safety over an astonishing, terrifying dark nothing--a nothing even more profound than the void through which he had been falling. But this pit of blackness beneath the span was not simply nothing, it was a darkness that wanted to make everything else into a nothing, too. It existed, but its existence was a threat to all else. It was the raw stuff of unbeing.

What's happening in the above quote is that Barrick has been talking to Quinlan, in a dream-void. He was  going insane (just like Maegwin, actually) while being a prisoner of Jack of Chains (demigod). The area he's seeing is a place deep below him, where Jack is digging up what we might consider an inter dimensional gate or door.

The rest of the mentions of Unbeing come from the religious quotes of the humans and Qar before chapters. Interestingly, whereas the other quotes disagree about details, both Qar and human religious texts call the place the gods of the world are hurled into the "Void of Unbeing." As far as I recall, this Void is actually used as a shortcut instant travel method by Barrick in the next book, but Tad writes around it--Barrick enters and we see him in his next location, remembering nothing of what was on the other side. It is also supposed to annihilate you completely if you enter it without being a god and even if you are one it can seriously mess you up.

 

#19 2017-07-26 01:38:52

Kenan
Pilgrim
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8741
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Ad1tu wrote:

So, seriously, how long did this journey across the ocean take?? I'm not going to pull that bit out from Firs's dissertation, but we know Amerasu is called Shipborn, and apparently she was a self-described child during the voyage. Even if we assume Sithi infancy is roughly the same amount of time as human infancy, that trip must have been 3-5 years, at least! Magellan-Elcano made it around the Earth in 3 or so years. And they didn't have Ruyan the Navigator with them!

Maybe Ruyan fooled them. Maybe he did bring them all the way back to the Garden, and it wasn't that Unbeing followed them, it was just still there. But: Why didn't they recognize any landmarks, and where did the humans come from... Hmm.

I think the world was in turmoil for several years and it was only after it had calmed the f down that they could make landfall.


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

#20 2017-07-26 07:43:57

Outsider
Pilgrim
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2008-04-29
Posts: 177
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

It's odd to me because when land is exposed from the ocean, it take hundreds if not thousands of years for it to be covered in vegetation and for animals to come and inhabit it. There would be no to little food, and it takes some time for sand to run into soil. It seems to me that Osten Ard was always here in some capacity, even if it was just Aldehort forest and surrounding areas even extending up to the mountains. Look at the map, I can imagine there being water that goes right up to the forest and between the forest and mountains (Frostmarch). maybe even the land below Nabban.

Maybe a huge asteroid struck the far side of the planet far enough away from the Garden to not kill all the garden born and a huge hole swallowed up a lot of the water exposing much of the land that wasn't exposed before. And the Garden born were running away from the effects of that cataclysm.


"A witty saying proves nothing." -- Voltaire
"Bring back meat, we are not Zida'ya, to live on flowers and bee's milk." -- Kemme

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#21 2017-07-26 09:00:56

pixiejen
Pilgrim
From: At my desk
Registered: 2008-01-18
Posts: 95
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Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Reading the War of the Flowers right now and one of the names for the large, main forest in Faerie is Old Heart :D :D :D :D  (This is Aldheorte in Osten Ard - did I spell that right? It was from memory :O )

I was like.... you sly devil you :D


Anyway sorry just a little tidbit of info to the 'everything is connected' bit.


"When the windows of perception are cleansed, man will see the universe as it truly is - infinite."

-W. Blake.

pixiejen.com

 

#22 2017-07-26 10:43:42

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23099
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Outsider wrote:

It's odd to me because when land is exposed from the ocean, it take hundreds if not thousands of years for it to be covered in vegetation and for animals to come and inhabit it.

I wouldn't say 'thousands', but 'hundreds' sounds about right. Surtsey is a volcanic island in Iceland which surfaced in 1963. (We learned about the island in elementary school in the 1980s.) Despite the cold weather, the island is already partially covered in plant life, and birds and seals call it home. Earthworms are already doing their part, enriching the soil.

But it would definitely take thousands of years for the big megafauna (deer, horses, other ungulates) to move in and colonize a continent. Land bridges would have to open up so they could cross over.


Maybe a huge asteroid struck the far side of the planet far enough away from the Garden to not kill all the garden born and a huge hole swallowed up a lot of the water exposing much of the land that wasn't exposed before. And the Garden born were running away from the effects of that cataclysm.

If the asteroid were 6 miles in diameter or larger, nearly all life on the planet would be wiped out, and it would take a million years for life to fully recover. I don't think the Gardenborn were around for millions of years, as even Utuk'ku, Tad indicated, is "only" around 10,000 years old.

I suspect the cataclysm in the Garden involved dragons; there's a passage in HOWWL, the one about Hamakho Wormslayer, that leads me to believe this.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#23 2017-07-26 11:02:33

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23099
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS POSSIBLE TWC SPOILERS


pixiejen wrote:

Reading the War of the Flowers right now and one of the names for the large, main forest in Faerie is Old Heart :D :D :D :D  (This is Aldheorte in Osten Ard - did I spell that right? It was from memory :O )

I was like.... you sly devil you :D


Anyway sorry just a little tidbit of info to the 'everything is connected' bit.

Jen, good find!

You know, there are many commonalities across all Tad-works.

I don't like the thought of a canonical link between Osten Ard and the fairy land in WotF, because those worlds aren't a good match, nor are Osten Ard and Otherland... but I see some possibilities between Osten Ard and Eion/Xand from Shadowmarch.

Like maybe Tzoja wanders through lands no mortal woman has set foot in, and one of the lands she comes to is full of shadows and fog. She's granted an audience with the rulers. The ancient Qar tell her they have lived there since before their ancient brethren left, a millennium earlier, on eight great silverwood ships. Dun dun DUN!

(I realize this idea is a bit crackpot).


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#24 2017-07-26 13:45:04

Tad
Hierarch
From: California
Registered: 2001-05-30
Posts: 7612
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

I'm not going to comment on any of the interesting discussion above, but you'll get a lot of new information about the Garden and the various partings and exiles in EoG.


"I'll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours."

-- Dylan

 

#25 2017-07-26 13:53:46

Kenan
Pilgrim
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: 2005-06-19
Posts: 8741
Website

Re: The Lost Garden and the Exile of the Sithi.

Awesome, Tad! Now looking forward to it even more, if that was possible!


Wouldn't the plural form of Olaf be Olaves? ;) - Firsfron of Ronchester

 

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