Tad Williams' Message Board

Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- 'God damn it, you've got to be kind.'
-    Kurt Vonnegut, 1922-2007

Welcome to the message board for tadwilliams.com. All comments are welcome, whether kudos or brickbats. However, please bear in mind that Tad would like this to be a friendly, civil message board, at least in the relations between users. We reserve the right to remove postings, or even ban postings, from anyone who crosses the boundary of reasonable taste. Basically, you can argue vigorously with someone, but watch your language, okay? We have a lot of young readers as well as grown-ups, so please show them some respect.

But the main requirement here is: have fun.


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#26 2013-01-17 07:18:10

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13277

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

cyan wrote:

It's been on my list for a long time.  But I know if I start them, I'll want all of them, and don't have a spare several hundred dollars for that.  Especially since my dishwasher broke last night.

Actually not quite as much as several hundert dollars, about 120$ I'd say. The paperback editions are from 11-15$ and there is ten of them. But that is still much if you need a new dish washer. What a stupid way to spend money when you could spend it on books.

But I see you don't need to be be convinced - it's amazing how imaginative and creepy and wonderful Neil Gaiman's work is even at the start of his career 25 years ago.

And Firsfron, pick up whatever you come across. It's brilliant, all of it. And if you like audio books check out those which he reads himself (Neverwhere, Stardust and The Graveyard Book). That man has one of the most compelling voices I know (up there with Alan Rickman), I would buy the phonebook if he read it ... and he is handsome (well ot as much as he was but who is?) ... and he is married to Amanda Palmer - how cool can one man be?

End of another "how Gaiman is bestes, second only to the Dogly One" rant.

I really get carried away with that. Will stop it. Promise.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#27 2013-01-17 10:15:18

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way
Mantis
From: Yonder green hills
Registered: 2006-03-29
Posts: 13106

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

Magpie wrote:

ylvs wrote:

Of course I could not stop myself from checking right away. It's Hob Gadling in Men of Good Fortune, the fourth story of The Doll's House.

*rushes back to stuff*

Never read that, so I still don't know why it feels so familiar to me. *shrug*

I know it's in Terry Pratchett's "The colour of Magic":

" [p. 184/160] "The captain had long ago decided that he would, on the whole, prefer to achieve immortality by not dying."

.... sorry *goes back to lurking*


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"Sorry about your crap day, wish you libra-level dreams. ;o)"
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#28 2013-01-17 12:48:18

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13277

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

*huggles Libra*

Yeah to delurking!

So we have Adams, Gaiman, Pratchett, Dog ... there must be even more then ... think!


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#29 2013-01-17 13:14:56

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13277

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

Magpie, gave some thoughts on your musings about Leo's death. Led me to a "what if" I'll share at the appropriate time - if I don't forget.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#30 2013-01-19 14:54:42

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13277

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

Magpie wrote:

And then, at the end of the chapter, goes to defend Brady from the chapter title. Which gives us a glimpse of what happens to atheists (apparently, Heaven and Hell don't care if you believe in them - which again raises the questions of what happens to people of other religions, something that not even the characters seem to know) and what happens if Heaven loses a case. Even though Brady isn't a very likeable character, it's a little chilling (although, I'm sorry, screaming just looks stupid when it's written out as, "Aaah! Huuhhhh! Aaaaaaah!")
Afterwards, Bobby decides to ignore the second summons to Heaven and get drunk instead. Under the circumstances, it's understandable.

With all my Gaiman swooning I completely forgot to comment on this.
 I disagree on the Atheist part. We see here what happens to bullying jerks. Being atheist is not the reason for Brady's damnation, his lifestyle is.
The damnation scene (and yeah, the screams a bit ridiculous if I reflect on it) and Bobby getting drunk afterwards raises one of the core questions of the book: what makes a soul deserve damnation for eternity? Was not even Brady enough punished with purgatory and who is up to decide? Is there true evil and how does it manifest?


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#31 2013-01-19 15:21:38

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32666
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

I was half asleep when I wrote that, and I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining what I meant.
I didn't mean that Brady was sent to Hell because he was an atheist. What I meant was that, whether you believe or not, you will be judged and sent to Heaven or Hell according to your actions.

I hope I explained myself better this time, it's pretty late again. ;)

Another thing I wonder: even as an atheist, there is a chance that Brady comes from a Christian background (more likely than another religion, at least, based on his name). What happens to atheists from other religious backgrounds? What happens to other religions?

Last edited by Magpie (2013-01-19 15:22:20)


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#32 2013-01-19 23:27:14

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23126
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

Magpie wrote:

I was half asleep when I wrote that, and I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining what I meant.
I didn't mean that Brady was sent to Hell because he was an atheist. What I meant was that, whether you believe or not, you will be judged and sent to Heaven or Hell according to your actions.

I hope I explained myself better this time, it's pretty late again. ;)

Another thing I wonder: even as an atheist, there is a chance that Brady comes from a Christian background (more likely than another religion, at least, based on his name). What happens to atheists from other religious backgrounds? What happens to other religions?

From the text, it is clear that Brady doesn't go to hell because he's an atheist (although his not believing in God may have caused him to believe his actions would never be judged, ironically leading him to commit acts that led to him burning in Hell). Whoa. Did I just come up with a rationale for belief in a higher power?

I've often said I'm really glad that crazy religious nuts believe in God. Helps keep them honest.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#33 2013-01-26 13:27:45

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32666
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

I guess it's time to get another thread started here... I'll try to do that tomorrow, if I manage to put MST down long enough to read two chapters of TDSoH. Let's try to get back on schedule!


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#34 2013-01-26 13:54:48

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13277

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

I wanted to do that all week and never gor to it...
Encourages Magpie.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
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#35 2013-02-02 01:21:40

Tad
Hierarch
From: California
Registered: 2001-05-30
Posts: 7612
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

Interestingly, I just wrote something for the beginning of the third book in which Bobby is the advocate for a Hindu gentleman who has just died in a car accident.  I suppose it's not giving too much away to say that the souls Bobby deals with in his job to this point have been entirely local and don't seem to be segregated by belief or non-belief.  As to what happens in other countries -- well, I'd love to find out one day, generally.  More specifically, I already have an idea for a fourth Bobby book.  If people keep reading them, I'll keep writing them.  But I also intend to keep writing other kinds of fantasy as well, 'course.


"I'll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours."

-- Dylan

 

#36 2013-02-03 12:08:30

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23126
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

Tad wrote:

Interestingly, I just wrote something for the beginning of the third book in which Bobby is the advocate for a Hindu gentleman who has just died in a car accident.  I suppose it's not giving too much away to say that the souls Bobby deals with in his job to this point have been entirely local and don't seem to be segregated by belief or non-belief.  As to what happens in other countries -- well, I'd love to find out one day, generally.  More specifically, I already have an idea for a fourth Bobby book.  If people keep reading them, I'll keep writing them.  But I also intend to keep writing other kinds of fantasy as well, 'course.

The man himself!

Also, it's quite interesting that you're already writing the third book, Tad, when the second one isn't even out yet, and even planning a fourth.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#37 2013-02-04 00:18:07

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13277

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

And what do we faithful Smarchies say to that?

Yeah, verily yeah!


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#38 2013-02-04 06:20:02

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32666
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

And doesn't it sound very familiar - "there are going to be three books - no, wait, it'll be four." ;)


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#39 2013-02-04 15:01:18

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23126
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

BWAHAHAHAH!!!! Good one, Magpie.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#40 2013-02-05 19:13:43

Neemo
Pilgrim
From: Hamilton, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-03-28
Posts: 921
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

I can't beleive no-one mentioned the sithi....they die when they decide they want to...immortal by choice

Maybe foxy is beetlejuice lol...stripy scarf, baggy clothes...jar jar binks maybe

I've seen the coraline movie but never read the books by that guy

Camp Zion...homage to the matrix? Or just a reference to Jerusalem? Anyway the backstory for bobby and Sam was cool, is the harps homage to dungeons and dragons forgotten realms the Harper's? In d&d they ate a group of heroes that project the world from evil organizations

 

#41 2013-02-13 13:30:21

Nefermiw
Pilgrim
From: Lund, Sweden
Registered: 2010-11-28
Posts: 141

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

I guess we needed to see Bobby loose a case. It makes you believe in he universe of the book more. I find it difficult to really get into a tv series where the the lawyers win all their cases all the time.

I am also glad we finally got to know more about Bobby's background, because I was wondering about why he was all so good at sneaking around and when he was about to go after Vauld he even mentioned ignoring his training for staking out and sneaking about and that was a bit confusing at the time.

 

#42 2013-09-05 04:36:29

Peter
Pilgrim
From: Austria
Registered: 2001-08-23
Posts: 39222
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

So now we know where Bobby met Sam, and that Sam was his mentor in a previous job, but Bobby is actually senior as an advocate. Also explains his knowledge about standard procedures for invading Valds building, which was called in question a previous week.

I still find it interesting that everyone seems able to find Bobby (the Countess at a clients site in a previous chapter and now Foxy knows his company phone number), but not Eligor and his minions?


May the birds who shelter in your branches never poop on the innocent. -Tad

 

#43 2013-09-05 05:36:13

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13277

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

Probably Eligor thinks that there is no way the Ghallu would fail his job ...


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#44 2013-09-05 05:39:32

Peter
Pilgrim
From: Austria
Registered: 2001-08-23
Posts: 39222
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 9, chps 16 & 17 *SPOILERS*

ylvs wrote:

Probably Eligor thinks that there is no way the Ghallu would fail his job ...

It would probably make the story very short...


May the birds who shelter in your branches never poop on the innocent. -Tad

 

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