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#1 2012-11-01 17:13:09

Firsfron of Ronchester
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The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Here's where we will discuss Chapters 12 and 13.


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#2 2012-11-02 02:51:52

ylvs
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

My dearest Firsfron: this takes "open a new thread" far too literally for me ... I had hoped you'd start the discussion ... ah well, might do it later, the day is still young ...


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#3 2012-11-04 22:41:47

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

ylvs wrote:

My dearest Firsfron: this takes "open a new thread" far too literally for me ... I had hoped you'd start the discussion ... ah well, might do it later, the day is still young ...

Finished!


Does the amusement park first mentioned in Chapter 12 exist? Anyone know? Cyan? I was able to locate a Shoreline Amphitheater; I also found an adjacent "Shoreline at Mountain View Park", that offers paddle boating.

I also found the 4442 East Charleston address in the book, which is in Mountain View, California, a mile from mid-town Palo Alto... and... it's actually a Google corporate office building!

In Chapter 13, Bobby discusses a "5 Page Mill Square". The address is semi-fictionalized, but there actually is a Palo Alto Square at the corner of Page Mill Road and Camino Real. 5 Palo Alto Square turns out to be... City National Bank! In Tad's story, it is the headquarters of Evil, Inc.  I wonder what City National Bank did to tick Tad off? ;)

[Edited because my original post was pretty messy]

Last edited by Firsfron of Ronchester (2012-11-05 10:25:35)


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#4 2012-11-05 15:24:28

Pretzalz
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From: USA
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Posts: 2256

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Countess of Cold Hands - the cold hands, cold hearts saying.  What is the saying really?  My first reaction was that it was supposed to be cold hands, warm heart.  Meaning that the Countess is really a softie.  But anytime this comes up in conversation I reverse it to give the person a cold heart[usually it comes up when someone has cold hands, warm hands aren't really remarkable] as a joke to the point where I am not 100% sure what the real saying is.

Glad we've already caught up to the prologue, though it was a little anticlimatic.  It wasn't some big showdown, it was just BD being an idiot.

Is Vald supposed to evoke Vlad[the Impaler]?  It seems too close not to.


Jane: Ohh, you are trying to deal with your loneliness by surrounding yourself with friends, hmm, how's that going to work?

 

#5 2012-11-05 15:45:10

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Pretzalz wrote:

Countess of Cold Hands - the cold hands, cold hearts saying.  What is the saying really?  My first reaction was that it was supposed to be cold hands, warm heart.  Meaning that the Countess is really a softie.  But anytime this comes up in conversation I reverse it to give the person a cold heart[usually it comes up when someone has cold hands, warm hands aren't really remarkable] as a joke to the point where I am not 100% sure what the real saying is.

The saying actually is "cold hands, warm heart". But it may be a myth, according to a 2008 study.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#6 2012-11-05 17:28:30

Pretzalz
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Pretzalz wrote:

Countess of Cold Hands - the cold hands, cold hearts saying.  What is the saying really?  My first reaction was that it was supposed to be cold hands, warm heart.  Meaning that the Countess is really a softie.  But anytime this comes up in conversation I reverse it to give the person a cold heart[usually it comes up when someone has cold hands, warm hands aren't really remarkable] as a joke to the point where I am not 100% sure what the real saying is.

The saying actually is "cold hands, warm heart". But it may be a myth, according to a 2008 study.

LOL, someone needed to do a study.


Jane: Ohh, you are trying to deal with your loneliness by surrounding yourself with friends, hmm, how's that going to work?

 

#7 2012-11-05 17:49:07

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Those myths won't disprove themselves! ;)


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#8 2012-11-05 19:42:47

cyan
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Does the amusement park first mentioned in Chapter 12 exist? Anyone know? Cyan?

I don't know.  I'm an East Bay girl, and I know San Francisco pretty well, but I'm not at all familiar with the South Bay.  I can tell you that the Shoreline Amphitheater is a large concert venue, I saw Heart and Phil Collins there back in the day.  Since San Judas is a fictional city, I'm inclined to think that Tad is mashing together a bunch of Bay Area elements and landmarks into it.

Having been afflicted with cold hands for most of my life, I would say that, 'cold hands, low blood pressure' would be a more accurate saying.  Cold heart?  Wouldn't that technically mean dead?


"Never underestimate the power and accuracy of a chicken-chucking trebuchet." ~ Tad

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#9 2012-11-09 04:24:57

Nefermiw
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

First I'll post some of my thoughts, and then I'll read what you guys have written and then maybe post some more.

It had gotten the impression that time in the real world stood still when Bobby enters a zipper, but in chapter 12 he says "time continues to pass Inside while you're Outside,..." so this just further messes with my head abut all this time differences.

When he sits in the Countess' car he says "...if my bosses found out...". I find it weird that the People Upstairs know everything that happens in peoples life and therefore they can judge them fairly when they die, but they won't find out that Bobby is mingling with a demon unless they are told about it.

In chapter 13 it's all excitement and action with Bobby finally reaching the point in the story that the book opened with. But before he rushes in he thinks about how he should have done it properly and says "That was what I had been taught, ...". This is a weird thing to say. Even though he is acting like a detective it is not his job so why would he have been taught to do a full-scale prep as he puts it?

The 13th chapter ends with Bobby facing a greater demon that is going to kill him, but since it's not even half way through the book and two more books are in the making, I am pretty confident that Bobby won't die just yet. Of course his earthly body might die and he could get demoted, but somehow I doubt that that is what happens.

Oh, and I was thinking that the Magians had summoned the ghallu and sent it after Bobby, but since this scary Vald demon guy doesn't know who Bobby is that doesn't seem likely. And also Fatback said there hadn't been a ghallu sighting for a long time. That would kind of suggest that the Countess had been around beck then since she has had dealings with a ghallu before too.

 

#10 2012-11-09 10:11:19

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Nefermiw wrote:

When he sits in the Countess' car he says "...if my bosses found out...". I find it weird that the People Upstairs know everything that happens in peoples life and therefore they can judge them fairly when they die, but they won't find out that Bobby is mingling with a demon unless they are told about it.

Good point. It's like, "I'll do this surreptitiously, so the Bosses won't notice"... but if God is omnipotent, doesn't he already know? And as you say, we've specifically already been told that the Higher-Ups see all. I'll fanwank this and say that it's because he's an angel, not a mortal... but it seems kinda odd that the Bosses would exclude lower angels from the "omnipotent" thing: "We know all... with the exception of what low-level angels do. We're clueless about that stuff."

In chapter 13 it's all excitement and action with Bobby finally reaching the point in the story that the book opened with. But before he rushes in he thinks about how he should have done it properly and says "That was what I had been taught, ...". This is a weird thing to say. Even though he is acting like a detective it is not his job so why would he have been taught to do a full-scale prep as he puts it?

Hmmm.. maybe something from his previous life's training sneaked in? I don't really believe this theory, either, but it's all I got.


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#11 2012-11-11 08:32:02

ylvs
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From: Art Central
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Nefermiw wrote:

When he sits in the Countess' car he says "...if my bosses found out...". I find it weird that the People Upstairs know everything that happens in peoples life and therefore they can judge them fairly when they die, but they won't find out that Bobby is mingling with a demon unless they are told about it.

Good point. It's like, "I'll do this surreptitiously, so the Bosses won't notice"... but if God is omnipotent, doesn't he already know? And as you say, we've specifically already been told that the Higher-Ups see all.

But God is not in the game, yet. There's no witness he even exists for the time being. And Higher-Ups seeing everything does not nescessarily mean paying attention to everything. What Bobby refers to is creating noise to cover the signal. Nate Silver comes to my mind. Same principle and it seems to work for Bobby, considering that nobody notices this meeting with the Countess.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#12 2012-11-11 12:11:06

Magpie
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Finally caught up... well, at least until the next thread gets started, then I will have to find time to read again! Let's see if I can think of anything kind of intelligent to say... slept too long today, which leads to super-fuzzy brain...


Nefermiw wrote:

When he sits in the Countess' car he says "...if my bosses found out...". I find it weird that the People Upstairs know everything that happens in peoples life and therefore they can judge them fairly when they die, but they won't find out that Bobby is mingling with a demon unless they are told about it.

But humans have guardian angels watching them/maybe reporting on them. Angels don't.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Pretzalz wrote:

Countess of Cold Hands - the cold hands, cold hearts saying.  What is the saying really?  My first reaction was that it was supposed to be cold hands, warm heart.  Meaning that the Countess is really a softie.  But anytime this comes up in conversation I reverse it to give the person a cold heart[usually it comes up when someone has cold hands, warm hands aren't really remarkable] as a joke to the point where I am not 100% sure what the real saying is.

The saying actually is "cold hands, warm heart". But it may be a myth, according to a 2008 study.

Reminds me of a Mint conversation Genesis and I had about people not giving tips on rainy days. And then of course I had to go looking for it.
Personally, I always had cold hands as long as I was at school, and I don't think I was very warm-hearted then. Both has changed since I've started to work, although only the warmer hands are related to working.


A while ago, I mentioned having discovered another Tad-theme, or maybe it's just a funny coincidence - bad guys whose names start with "Eli-". I was reading A Stark and Wormy Knight at around the same time as The Dirty Streets of Heaven, and there are two of them there, Eli/Elizar in The Stranger's Hands and Eliastre in The Lamentably Comical Tragedy (or the Laughably Tragic Comedy) of Lixal Laqavee - I think it was the latter that made my mind first jump to Elias from MST, and then I thought, "wait a moment... there was Elizar just a few stories ago... and Eligor!" (And I suppose you could sort of include Felix Jongleur from Otherland...)

Edit:
And because ylvs and Firsfron tracked down all the angels' names and other Heavenly terms in the last thread, I went looking for Eligor. Didn't look very hard (fuzzy brain and all), but here's what I found.
I spotted one other familiar name on that list, but it'll be a few more chapters until we meet him.

Last edited by Magpie (2012-11-11 12:15:44)


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

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#13 2012-11-11 12:21:39

Magpie
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Oh, and chapter titles:

Ch 12, "black windows" :
p 124 (provided we all have the same page numbers), "As we emerged from the apartment building garage, I saw a long car with black windows idling under a streetlight."

Ch 13, "leviathan on a hook":
Not quite a literal quote - p. 141, "I had tossed in my little baited hook, and I had snagged Leviathan."


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#14 2012-11-11 13:04:21

ylvs
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Posts: 13257

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Oh how I wish my Tad books were not stacked in boxes! I'd be up and checking for more evil Eli NOW!
My books are packed away due to altering the top floor of our house - we built ourselves a guest room! I'm so happy, it's much more comfy for everyone than sleeping on the sofa in the living room. I unpacked the German books today but the shiny new board for the English ones is not yet built ...
Oh and I missed the first chapter title, thankee Magpie!


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#15 2012-11-11 19:33:25

Neemo
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Posts: 921
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

been an odd (and sad) week ... will try to catch up and post... i didnt forget (i may have actually read these chapters already)

 

#16 2012-11-13 13:21:50

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

ylvs wrote:

But God is not in the game, yet. There's no witness he even exists for the time being.

If you mean 'evidence' instead of 'witness', I see your point. But if Bobby is an angel, doesn't he believe in God? The God of Western Christianity is omnipotent: all-seeing and all-knowing.

And Higher-Ups seeing everything does not nescessarily mean paying attention to everything. What Bobby refers to is creating noise to cover the signal. Nate Silver comes to my mind. Same principle and it seems to work for Bobby, considering that nobody notices this meeting with the Countess.

Or do they...??? </ominous voice>


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#17 2012-11-13 13:33:45

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Magpie wrote:

Let's see if I can think of anything kind of intelligent to say... slept too long today, which leads to super-fuzzy brain...

[snip]

A while ago, I mentioned having discovered another Tad-theme, or maybe it's just a funny coincidence - bad guys whose names start with "Eli-". I was reading A Stark and Wormy Knight at around the same time as The Dirty Streets of Heaven, and there are two of them there, Eli/Elizar in The Stranger's Hands and Eliastre in The Lamentably Comical Tragedy (or the Laughably Tragic Comedy) of Lixal Laqavee - I think it was the latter that made my mind first jump to Elias from MST, and then I thought, "wait a moment... there was Elizar just a few stories ago... and Eligor!" (And I suppose you could sort of include Felix Jongleur from Otherland...)

Edit:
And because ylvs and Firsfron tracked down all the angels' names and other Heavenly terms in the last thread, I went looking for Eligor. Didn't look very hard (fuzzy brain and all), but here's what I found.
I spotted one other familiar name on that list, but it'll be a few more chapters until we meet him.

...Interesting!

Eligos (also Abigor or Eligor) is a Great Duke of Hell, ruling 60 legions of demons. He discovers hidden things and knows the future of wars and how soldiers should meet. He also attracts the favor of lords, knights and other important persons.

He is depicted in the form of a goodly knight carrying a lance, an ensign and a sceptre (a serpent to Aleister Crowley).

Alternatively he is depicted as a ghostly spectre, sometimes riding a semi-skeletal (sometimes winged) horse, or the Steed of Abigor. This is a minion of Hell itself, and was a gift from Beelzebub. It was created from the remains of one of the horses of The Garden of Eden.

And it says here that Eligos is one of the 72 Demons mentioned in that grimoire.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#18 2012-11-13 13:35:06

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Magpie wrote:

Oh, and chapter titles:

Ch 12, "black windows" :
p 124 (provided we all have the same page numbers), "As we emerged from the apartment building garage, I saw a long car with black windows idling under a streetlight."

Ch 13, "leviathan on a hook":
Not quite a literal quote - p. 141, "I had tossed in my little baited hook, and I had snagged Leviathan."

Is it possible that the even-numbered chapters are direct quotes from the book, while odd chapters are more figurative?


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#19 2012-11-13 13:37:26

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
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Posts: 23099
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Neemo wrote:

been an odd (and sad) week ... will try to catch up and post... i didnt forget (i may have actually read these chapters already)

Hope all's well, Neem.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#20 2012-11-13 13:48:58

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13257

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Magpie wrote:

Oh, and chapter titles:

Ch 12, "black windows" :
p 124 (provided we all have the same page numbers), "As we emerged from the apartment building garage, I saw a long car with black windows idling under a streetlight."

Ch 13, "leviathan on a hook":
Not quite a literal quote - p. 141, "I had tossed in my little baited hook, and I had snagged Leviathan."

Is it possible that the even-numbered chapters are direct quotes from the book, while odd chapters are more figurative?

Absolutely ... but being proven wrong by chapters 10 & 11, both direct quotes.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#21 2012-11-13 13:59:12

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

ylvs wrote:

Absolutely ... but being proven wrong by chapters 10 & 11, both direct quotes.

Okay, maybe it rotates using some Fibonacci sequence unknown to Mankind, which, when the sequence is revealed, it will not only explain the hidden chapter-code, it will also reveal the secret Code of Life!

(Of course, as soon as the Golden Light of Knowledge is revealed, the temple will begin collapsing, and we'll all barely escape with our lives... and the number sequence will be buried under an avalanche, lost forever. That's always how these things work).

Last edited by Firsfron of Ronchester (2012-11-13 14:09:39)


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#22 2012-11-14 03:10:32

cyan
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From: Magic Loft of Design & Wonder
Registered: 2005-02-16
Posts: 26870

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Hello fellow re-readers!  I leave tomorrow night (technically tonight because I'm up waaaay toooo late trying to pack) to visit my mother for the next two weeks.  I am taking DSoH and a notebook with me.  Gotta keep up with you all, if belatedly.  ;-)


"Never underestimate the power and accuracy of a chicken-chucking trebuchet." ~ Tad

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Proud Member of the Log Brigade

 

#23 2012-11-14 04:15:21

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13257

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

Cyan, have a safe and sound trip! Enjoy yourself and mother's company!
*huggles*


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#24 2012-11-14 10:38:56

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

cyan wrote:

Hello fellow re-readers!  I leave tomorrow night (technically tonight because I'm up waaaay toooo late trying to pack) to visit my mother for the next two weeks.  I am taking DSoH and a notebook with me.  Gotta keep up with you all, if belatedly.  ;-)

YAY!

Enjoy the trip!


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#25 2012-11-26 19:14:08

Neemo
Pilgrim
From: Hamilton, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-03-28
Posts: 921
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 7, chps 12 & 13 *SPOILERS!*

sorry for not participating recently, just got distracted the other week, a woman i work with gave brith to a stillborn baby...work was pretty glum all that week then a bunch of us went to the funeral...it hit me pretty hard, i can not imagine what they are going through, saddest thing I've ever had to witness

back to the book, um i see a bunch more plot setting upping...

we find out about magian society, we find a little about about the demon, the countess is being all secretive, a bit more about posie and gman

kinda wishing we'd get more meat and potatoes by now, seems we are getting into it now though...pretty good cliff hanger ending to chapter 13

 

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