Tad Williams' Message Board

Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- 'God damn it, you've got to be kind.'
-    Kurt Vonnegut, 1922-2007

Welcome to the message board for tadwilliams.com. All comments are welcome, whether kudos or brickbats. However, please bear in mind that Tad would like this to be a friendly, civil message board, at least in the relations between users. We reserve the right to remove postings, or even ban postings, from anyone who crosses the boundary of reasonable taste. Basically, you can argue vigorously with someone, but watch your language, okay? We have a lot of young readers as well as grown-ups, so please show them some respect.

But the main requirement here is: have fun.


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#26 2012-09-20 14:29:01

Olaf
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From: Germany
Registered: 2001-07-16
Posts: 4908
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Big Dog is watching you/us! :-)


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Writing books, especially long books, is a careful balance between laziness and masochism.
Tad Williams

 

#27 2012-09-20 15:03:57

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13279

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

we never forgot Dog loves us ...


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#28 2012-09-20 19:34:35

Neemo
Pilgrim
From: Hamilton, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-03-28
Posts: 921
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

hi all! no firsfron around here? i got the book delivered from amazon.ca this morning...was looking forward to this series so its cool to finally have vol one in hand....do we know if its a trilogy? or just an ongoing series? the 406 page count seems like half a book, haha, j/k, I am just so used to these 800-1000 monstrosities by Tad, Jordan, Martin et al that was kinda taken aback, also the dust jacket on my copy feels weird, like an almost rubber texture, but not actually rubbery lol if that makes any sense

anyway not sure what i can add to this unnaturally short Tad prologue

angels and demons feel pain and can be killed but to they go on to inhabit new bodies or what happens? maybe we'll find out later on

chapter 1

the angels seem to be toeing the line between good and evil...a byproduct of living in the earthly realm perchance? Bobby does mention during the trial that there are blurred lines as to what is acceptable and what isn't...the advocates witnessing these things during trials probably confuses them and blurs their boundaries as well

I like the first person pov and i like the Bobby Dollar name...fits the atmosphere of the world as we've been presented in these first few pages. Clarence's "goodness" is a stark contrast to the cynicism that Sam and Bobby seem to have. though as has been pointed out...there is something shifty goin on with an apparent youthful promotion

I like the idea of being dropped into the middle of a world where it seems to have been going on literally forever....the demons and angels are so used to each other that they even have civilized conversations...well until someone steps over the invisible line

 

#29 2012-09-21 03:07:39

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13279

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Fiiiiiiiiirsfroooooooooonnnnnnn ???

You're the only one of our little shamrock still missing!


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#30 2012-09-22 06:47:27

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13279

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Ooohh, we completely forget to discuss the crucial two paragraphs in chapter one.
Very important plotwise undetectable unless one already knows ...

And thankee for the info on the Whole Sick Choir Dog!


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
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#31 2012-09-23 13:23:32

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13279

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

cyan wrote:

In an alternate universe, author Bobby Williams is known for his epic fantasy called, "Recollection, Sadness, and Spike".

Btw: Deb put this on FB and Twitter today.

Give us more hilarious quotes cyan!


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#32 2012-09-23 13:28:41

Nefermiw
Pilgrim
From: Lund, Sweden
Registered: 2010-11-28
Posts: 141

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Let's see... I am not sure what to say other than the prologue left me really confused, but as Bobby says himself in chapter one, if I recall correctly, it was confusing for us to hear. So I guess I will just have to wait patiently to be enlightened.

Chapter one left me feeling as often with the beginning of a book that you are being overfed on info to get you up to date on the universe of the book. Maybe it was just the contrast to the under-informing prologue that left me feeling that way about the first chapter.

Could also be that the last Tad book that I read was The Secrets of Ordinary Farm, and this book is another genre and I need to get used to a new type of Tad-book.

 

#33 2012-09-23 13:39:56

Magpie
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From: miraculously thistle-free town
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

ylvs wrote:

Ooohh, we completely forget to discuss the crucial two paragraphs in chapter one.
Very important plotwise undetectable unless one already knows ...

It's probably better not to discuss them if we want to avoid spoilers for later chapters... would just be a tiny spoiler, of course, but still... because it really is undetectable - I completely forgot to pay attention to it in my first reread, and even now - the third time I read it - I had to go back at the end of Ch 1 because
I remembered, "oh, wait, something important happened here and I didn't pay attention again.
But I'm glad about that, because it's too easy to make a meant-to-look-insignificant things practically shout "hey, I'll be important to the plot later!"


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#34 2012-09-23 14:09:38

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13279

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Magpie wrote:

ylvs wrote:

Ooohh, we completely forget to discuss the crucial two paragraphs in chapter one.
Very important plotwise undetectable unless one already knows ...

It's probably better not to discuss them if we want to avoid spoilers for later chapters... would just be a tiny spoiler, of course, but still... because it really is undetectable - I completely forgot to pay attention to it in my first reread, and even now - the third time I read it - I had to go back at the end of Ch 1 because
I remembered, "oh, wait, something important happened here and I didn't pay attention again.
But I'm glad about that, because it's too easy to make a meant-to-look-insignificant things practically shout "hey, I'll be important to the plot later!"

So you did stop being lazy already, Magpie!
*grins*

That is exactly how I did want to discuss this. I had the very same experience: missed it in first reread and only noticed in the second because I really paid attention.

One of my best friends finished reading BD the other day. She generally liked it but complained that the reader is told too often what BD doesn't know, that she thought it was redundant in places it needed not to be. I remember this complaint from some reviews and wil pay attention in our reread if they have a point . To a certain degree repetetiveness seems right for a novel with a first person pov -  I tend to ask myself the very same questions 24/7 ...

Last edited by ylvs (2012-09-23 14:11:15)


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#35 2012-09-23 14:30:35

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13279

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

@Nefermiw: I did put it down afer the second chapter iirc with an information overload and had to think things through for a while.
I really like it when a book does force me to pause and think a bit. That rarely happens in genre fiction.
*praises the Dog*


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#36 2012-09-24 11:58:47

Sahi
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From: Assendelft (the Netherlands)
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 44731
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Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Thanks for te clue, I'll definitely try to pay more attention as soon as I actually start my reread to catch up!


"Because it is scientifically impossible to have enough books." - Patrick Rothfuss

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#37 2012-09-24 17:18:50

Ad1tu
Pilgrim
From: Buffysadharc
Registered: 2004-02-22
Posts: 6339

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

ylvs wrote:

Ooohh, we completely forget to discuss the crucial two paragraphs in chapter one.
Very important plotwise undetectable unless one already knows ...

And thankee for the info on the Whole Sick Choir Dog!

Wait which two are those...


If you should do what makes you happy, and no one can tell you what makes you happy, then that means no one can tell you what to do!

Tamishu's Ramblings

 

#38 2012-09-24 17:42:01

Ad1tu
Pilgrim
From: Buffysadharc
Registered: 2004-02-22
Posts: 6339

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Ok question!!!

On page 14, we meet Xathanatron, Principality and judge of the trial for Mrs. Martino's soul. Is it a pre-requisite that to be a judge you must first be a Principality? And/or are all Principalities judges, or are there other big important jobs that only Principalities can do?


If you should do what makes you happy, and no one can tell you what makes you happy, then that means no one can tell you what to do!

Tamishu's Ramblings

 

#39 2012-09-24 23:03:12

Magpie
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From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32667
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Ad1tu wrote:

ylvs wrote:

Ooohh, we completely forget to discuss the crucial two paragraphs in chapter one.
Very important plotwise undetectable unless one already knows ...

And thankee for the info on the Whole Sick Choir Dog!

Wait which two are those...

I believe that would be a spoiler... so...

SPOILER *** SPOILER *** SPOILER *** SPOILER *** SPOILER

I assume ylvs is talking about when Grasswax pulls Bobby off Howlingfell, and Sam helps him put his jacket back on.

Last edited by Magpie (2012-09-24 23:08:47)


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#40 2012-09-24 23:13:27

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32667
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Ad1tu wrote:

Ok question!!!

On page 14, we meet Xathanatron, Principality and judge of the trial for Mrs. Martino's soul. Is it a pre-requisite that to be a judge you must first be a Principality? And/or are all Principalities judges, or are there other big important jobs that only Principalities can do?

I can't remember if the other higher angels we meet later on are Principalities, too ... didn't find anything when I looked just now, but I wasn't looking very hard.


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#41 2012-09-28 00:23:38

cyan
Mantis
From: Magic Loft of Design & Wonder
Registered: 2005-02-16
Posts: 26871

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

ylvs wrote:

cyan wrote:

In an alternate universe, author Bobby Williams is known for his epic fantasy called, "Recollection, Sadness, and Spike".

Btw: Deb put this on FB and Twitter today.

Give us more hilarious quotes cyan!

Wha....!!! kcha... sptb... lrghg...


"Never underestimate the power and accuracy of a chicken-chucking trebuchet." ~ Tad

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#42 2012-09-28 05:01:14

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13279

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

*giggles*

That's a bit too cryptic for my taste ...


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
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#43 2012-09-29 20:20:41

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23130
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

I finished "The Dirty Streets of Heaven" the other day, so I feel comfortable now discussing the first couple of chapters now.

It's so cool to start a book discussion with the other "core four" members of the "Recollection, Sadness, and Spike" re-read of 2005-2006. Ylvs! Neemo! Cyan! Yay!

My reaction to Bobby Dollar's name was much the same as Ylvs': "kinda stupid". But maybe there is an autobiographical connection with the name "Bobby", as Olaf mentions: Bobby>Robert>Tad. And 'dolor' being 'pain'... good catch, Ylvs. The name Doloriel is a fairly common surname. And -iel is used in a lot of angel names. Gabriel. Uriel. Dubbiel. Tadhiel (yes, there's a Tadhiel). I think it's the standard name ending for angels.

Tad drops the F-bomb in the second paragraph of the first page of the story. Quite unlike the Tad of... well, all his previous books. He's always kept the language clean, in deference to younger readers. Is this an indicator of how times have changed, or is Tad simply writing for an entirely different audience here? I wonder what his younger fans think of the language in this book.

The Xathanatron who first appears on page 14 reminds me of Metatron, who James Lewis and Evelyn Oliver, in their book "Angels A to Z", name as an angel of death. The names are similar, as are their positions.

As I read this story, I was really impressed by Tad's knowledge of the Bay Area.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#44 2012-09-30 06:07:26

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13279

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Firsfron is here!

*dances little happy dance*


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
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#45 2012-09-30 09:30:17

Sahi
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From: Assendelft (the Netherlands)
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 44731
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Ron, you do realize he lives there, right?


"Because it is scientifically impossible to have enough books." - Patrick Rothfuss

Scrollbearer
First member of the Shadowmarch Council of Sages, Official Quiller's Mint Historian
You may call me the Porcupine Lady, or if you are feeling generous the Erinaceous One.

 

#46 2012-09-30 09:56:31

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23130
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

ylvs wrote:

Firsfron is here!

*dances little happy dance*

Hee! Thanks for the e-mails, Ylvs!


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#47 2012-09-30 09:58:02

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23130
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Sahi wrote:

Ron, you do realize he lives there, right?

Yes, I'm aware. Still, he knows enough about the area to... well, I guess "write a book about it" sounds silly. ;)


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#48 2012-09-30 10:11:59

ylvs
Mantis
From: Art Central
Registered: 2001-06-19
Posts: 13279

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

ylvs wrote:

Firsfron is here!

*dances little happy dance*

Hee! Thanks for the e-mails, Ylvs!

They were most selfish. A reread without you is ... well I cannot imagine what that would be .. not good.


To meet an old friend is like the finding of a welcoming campfire in the dark. Qanuc saying
Scrollbearer
Titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Arsonist of the probably most spectacular Mint burning ever

 

#49 2012-10-14 03:18:33

Aan`allein
Hierarch
From: The Netherlands - occasionally
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 6071
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Tad drops the F-bomb in the second paragraph of the first page of the story. Quite unlike the Tad of... well, all his previous books. He's always kept the language clean, in deference to younger readers. Is this an indicator of how times have changed, or is Tad simply writing for an entirely different audience here?

I'm continuously amazed by the 'angst' this tiny little word produces with American audiences - but given that Tad knows that audience, I strongly suspect he put it in there that early quite deliberately, to indicate that hey, this book might not be entirely suitable to be reading to your children.


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<Mossop> run for the hills!
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#50 2012-10-22 15:44:16

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23130
Website

Re: The Dirty Streets Of Heaven (re)read week 1 *SPOILERS*

Aan`allein wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Tad drops the F-bomb in the second paragraph of the first page of the story. Quite unlike the Tad of... well, all his previous books. He's always kept the language clean, in deference to younger readers. Is this an indicator of how times have changed, or is Tad simply writing for an entirely different audience here?

I'm continuously amazed by the 'angst' this tiny little word produces with American audiences - but given that Tad knows that audience, I strongly suspect he put it in there that early quite deliberately, to indicate that hey, this book might not be entirely suitable to be reading to your children.

It's part of our culture, I'm afraid. U.S. culture, I mean. We were (partially) founded by religious zealots who believed in burning witches, etc.

Interestingly enough, on the front page of TadWilliams.com, the front page quote is currently:

I got up next morning with a head that felt like the ball from some brutal medieval game, the kind where at least a couple of peasants died every time. But even the horrible throbbing couldn’t make me forget the not-very-bright-thing I’d done the night before — basically told Heaven to go fuck itself. So why wasn’t I standing up in front of a celestial firing squad or whatever it was that happened to bad angels?

(emphasis mine)
Quite a difference from the profanity disclaimer written at the top of the message board more than a decade ago (but which is still there):

Basically, you can argue vigorously with someone, but watch your language, okay? We have a lot of young readers as well as grown-ups, so please show them some respect.

The contradiction between the quote and the profanity advisory are quite glaring. So it does make me wonder if our views on language (specifically the 'F-word') have changed over the last decade or so.

Last edited by Firsfron of Ronchester (2012-10-22 15:45:11)


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

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