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  •  » Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

#51 2010-11-16 13:40:28

ylvs
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From: Art Central
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Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

cyan wrote:

xavie wrote:

When Sellars says that there was nothing quite like Otterland when he was a little boy I wondered how old he was, when he probably had been a little boy and what computer games there had been that were or were not like Otterland.

My impression is that he's pretty darned old so when he was Christabel's age, he prolly only had Pong.

IIRC correctly Sellars was a young man during WWII so he probably barely had TV when he grew up ...


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#52 2010-11-17 00:07:11

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

ylvs wrote:

cyan wrote:

xavie wrote:

When Sellars says that there was nothing quite like Otterland when he was a little boy I wondered how old he was, when he probably had been a little boy and what computer games there had been that were or were not like Otterland.

My impression is that he's pretty darned old so when he was Christabel's age, he prolly only had Pong.

IIRC correctly Sellars was a young man during WWII so he probably barely had TV when he grew up ...

If he's a U.S. serviceman who served in WWII, he would not have had TV growing up, unless he grew up in New York City. Commercial network service was not established in the U.S. until after WWII. There were a few experimental stations in NYC (DuMont's WABD, NBC's WNBC, and CBS's WCBS), but even that was extremely limited, since everything was dedicated to the war effort.

Last edited by Firsfron of Ronchester (2010-11-17 00:16:33)


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#53 2010-11-17 00:15:23

Firsfron of Ronchester
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Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

xavie wrote:

Hey everyone!
Sorry for being late. I had a tiring week. Like Em, I'm not sure how much I can contribute. I love the book and just want to keep reading, but I don't know if I can say many insightful, intelligent things about it ^_^°

Yay, you made it!

I never really understood what happened when Paul got hit by the shell. If you can die from mortal wounds in otherland, then why doesn't he die?

I don't understand this either. Anyone have an explanation up their sleeve? Maybe... maybe the shells and bombs were only intended as a sort of "scare tactic" in the simulation, intended to keep Paul in his place, keep him scared and in the trenches. If the munitions weren't "real" even in the simulation, they would have no real effect.

(That's the best I've got).


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#54 2010-11-17 03:16:02

xavie
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From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2006-01-22
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Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

ylvs wrote:

cyan wrote:


My impression is that he's pretty darned old so when he was Christabel's age, he prolly only had Pong.

IIRC correctly Sellars was a young man during WWII so he probably barely had TV when he grew up ...

If he's a U.S. serviceman who served in WWII, he would not have had TV growing up, unless he grew up in New York City. Commercial network service was not established in the U.S. until after WWII. There were a few experimental stations in NYC (DuMont's WABD, NBC's WNBC, and CBS's WCBS), but even that was extremely limited, since everything was dedicated to the war effort.

That would be freakishly old indeed. If he had served in WW2, he would have to be born in 1921 or so. That would make him 124 in the year 2045. Iirc they implanted all those metal parts in his body, strengthened his bones etc. when he was flying for the army. Would that have been possible back in 1939? I think I figured it would have been some later war, maybe Vietnam. Maybe it's better to discuss his age when we know more when he actually tells the others about how he got his metal bones.

 

#55 2010-11-17 04:57:18

Neemo
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From: Hamilton, ON, CA
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Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

where does it mention when the story takes place?

i thought it was later than 2045

i seem to recall Jonas as being an anomoly to the regular programming of otherland....or maybe WW2 sim wasnt really otherland but some kind of holding place....then he somehow gets blasted into the place (Sellars steering him toward the tree and hacking it somehow?)

 

#56 2010-11-17 11:51:02

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way
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From: Yonder green hills
Registered: 2006-03-29
Posts: 13106

Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

xavie wrote:

I never really understood what happened when Paul got hit by the shell. If you can die from mortal wounds in otherland, then why doesn't he die?

I don't understand this either. Anyone have an explanation up their sleeve? Maybe... maybe the shells and bombs were only intended as a sort of "scare tactic" in the simulation, intended to keep Paul in his place, keep him scared and in the trenches. If the munitions weren't "real" even in the simulation, they would have no real effect.

(That's the best I've got).

Well.... (this is so against rules)... the Paul in WW is the actual vitual Paul and he stays in that simulation for the entire time... However, during the shell attack, probably because of the Other getting into things, he basically went through the Grail process... So the "real" virtual Paul dies, and reappears when the new cycle of that simulation starts, but there now is a copy (Grail process), which becomes the Paul that starts roaming all the network.... At least, this is my perception of things...

Gah.... this hurts my head....


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#57 2010-11-17 19:29:42

cyan
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From: Magic Loft of Design & Wonder
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Posts: 26870

Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Neemo wrote:

where does it mention when the story takes place?

i thought it was later than 2045

The year is not mentioned in the books.  I recall Tad saying that he intended the story to take place about 50 years in the future.  He wrote CoGS in the mid-1990's so that puts us at mid-2040's.


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#58 2010-11-17 21:30:41

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
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Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

cyan wrote:

Neemo wrote:

where does it mention when the story takes place?

i thought it was later than 2045

The year is not mentioned in the books.  I recall Tad saying that he intended the story to take place about 50 years in the future.  He wrote CoGS in the mid-1990's so that puts us at mid-2040's.

But is it 50 years in the future from when he wrote it or 50 years in the future from when it's being read? ;)


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#59 2010-11-17 21:32:25

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

xavie wrote:

I never really understood what happened when Paul got hit by the shell. If you can die from mortal wounds in otherland, then why doesn't he die?

I don't understand this either. Anyone have an explanation up their sleeve? Maybe... maybe the shells and bombs were only intended as a sort of "scare tactic" in the simulation, intended to keep Paul in his place, keep him scared and in the trenches. If the munitions weren't "real" even in the simulation, they would have no real effect.

(That's the best I've got).

Well.... (this is so against rules)... the Paul in WW is the actual vitual Paul and he stays in that simulation for the entire time... However, during the shell attack, probably because of the Other getting into things, he basically went through the Grail process... So the "real" virtual Paul dies, and reappears when the new cycle of that simulation starts, but there now is a copy (Grail process), which becomes the Paul that starts roaming all the network.... At least, this is my perception of things...

Gah.... this hurts my head....

Now that I have read that through four times... got it!


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#60 2010-11-17 21:34:41

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

xavie wrote:

That would be freakishly old indeed. If he had served in WW2, he would have to be born in 1921 or so. That would make him 124 in the year 2045. Iirc they implanted all those metal parts in his body, strengthened his bones etc. when he was flying for the army. Would that have been possible back in 1939? I think I figured it would have been some later war, maybe Vietnam. Maybe it's better to discuss his age when we know more when he actually tells the others about how he got his metal bones.

I agree. I really don't remember where exactly it is discussed, though I know it's not near the beginning. so we'll save this discussion for later.


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#61 2010-11-17 21:41:50

cyan
Mantis
From: Magic Loft of Design & Wonder
Registered: 2005-02-16
Posts: 26870

Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

cyan wrote:

Neemo wrote:

where does it mention when the story takes place?

i thought it was later than 2045

The year is not mentioned in the books.  I recall Tad saying that he intended the story to take place about 50 years in the future.  He wrote CoGS in the mid-1990's so that puts us at mid-2040's.

But is it 50 years in the future from when he wrote it or 50 years in the future from when it's being read? ;)

Firs!  When you can clearly explain how a microwave oven works, I'll answer that question.  :-p


"Never underestimate the power and accuracy of a chicken-chucking trebuchet." ~ Tad

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#62 2010-11-18 00:06:56

cyan
Mantis
From: Magic Loft of Design & Wonder
Registered: 2005-02-16
Posts: 26870

Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way wrote:

(this is so against rules)

Rules are made to be broken.  ;-)

Seriously, my request to try to keep discussion focus to the chapters at hand was merely that: a request.  The idea that anyone in this group of intelligent and discerning S'marchers would equate that request to some sort of rule makes me more than a little uncomfortable.  (I do think that adhering to some sort of general guideline in the discussion thread would be a good thing.) (But who am I kidding?  Thread drift is practically a S'march hallmark!)

It's been a long time since I first read these books so there's lots that I don't remember, and I'm looking forward to rediscovering the intricate details of the story and figuring it all out again during course of the re-read.  That's what I was trying to convey.

Last edited by cyan (2010-11-18 00:34:57)


"Never underestimate the power and accuracy of a chicken-chucking trebuchet." ~ Tad

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#63 2010-11-18 00:54:04

Firsfron of Ronchester
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From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23117
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Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

cyan wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

cyan wrote:


The year is not mentioned in the books.  I recall Tad saying that he intended the story to take place about 50 years in the future.  He wrote CoGS in the mid-1990's so that puts us at mid-2040's.

But is it 50 years in the future from when he wrote it or 50 years in the future from when it's being read? ;)

Firs!  When you can clearly explain how a microwave oven works, I'll answer that question.  :-p

Easy-peasy. Magic! You stick the food in, set the time, and the Magic Heat Fairy inside does the rest. (She is related to the Man in the Fridge Who Turns the Light On When You Open the Door, but hers is a much deeper, more powerful magic).

Thread drift? Ermmm... None here, Ma'am!


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Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#64 2010-11-18 02:43:35

cyan
Mantis
From: Magic Loft of Design & Wonder
Registered: 2005-02-16
Posts: 26870

Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

cyan wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

But is it 50 years in the future from when he wrote it or 50 years in the future from when it's being read? ;)

Firs!  When you can clearly explain how a microwave oven works, I'll answer that question.  :-p

Easy-peasy. Magic! You stick the food in, set the time, and the Magic Heat Fairy inside does the rest. (She is related to the Man in the Fridge Who Turns the Light On When You Open the Door, but hers is a much deeper, more powerful magic).

Thread drift? Ermmm... None here, Ma'am!

I see your dubious and raise with ambiguity... so answer is: yes.

Last edited by cyan (2010-11-18 02:50:04)


"Never underestimate the power and accuracy of a chicken-chucking trebuchet." ~ Tad

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#65 2010-11-20 17:16:50

Pretzalz
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From: USA
Registered: 2001-06-02
Posts: 2256

Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Don't visit Shadowmarch very often any more, but happened on this read through and since you just started I thought I'd try to catch up.

Why is the Foreword called the 'Foreword' instead of just being Chapter 1?  Normally I would expect a Foreword to be sort of tangential to the main plot and not generally involve main charachters, but Paul is very much a main character .  Is this intended to be a sort of clever misdirection.  Are we led to believe it is possibly taking place 100 years before the main story to keep up the mystery of what is going on?  In a sense the line where Paul says that people don't die this early in fairy tales is both self-aware and ironic.  We aren't yet into the story proper of Chapter 1.  Characters in the forward/prologue get wiped out and/or are never heard from again all the time.

Knowing Paul's situation, I got the sense that the reread lacked the feeling of urgency and danger of the original read.

As for Renie and our first looks at the virtual world.  One thing that perhaps hasn't held up so well is the idea that everything is so expensive.  Sure the equipment itself is expensive, but once you are on there doesn't seem any intrinsic reason why one area would be more expensive or virtual constructions would cost significant money for upkeep.  But perhaps that is just the nature of the internet today and in 30 years the pendulum will swing back the other direction and everything will be behind a paywall and everything will seem prescient.

As for Mr. Sellers, I certainly remember thinking he was a pedophile the first time I read it, but the time through it seemed more benign given I know more who he really is.  I mean he is an old man in a sort of secluded house that Christabel's parents don't want her to see.  And immediately upon arriving he asks her to strip and change into  a costume.  Okay it turns out to just be a bath robe, but there is a sense like it could have been lingerie or a school uniform or something.


Jane: Ohh, you are trying to deal with your loneliness by surrounding yourself with friends, hmm, how's that going to work?

 

#66 2010-11-21 15:16:17

xavie
Pilgrim
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2006-01-22
Posts: 1566
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Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

cyan wrote:

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way wrote:

(this is so against rules)

Rules are made to be broken.  ;-)

Seriously, my request to try to keep discussion focus to the chapters at hand was merely that: a request.  The idea that anyone in this group of intelligent and discerning S'marchers would equate that request to some sort of rule makes me more than a little uncomfortable.  (I do think that adhering to some sort of general guideline in the discussion thread would be a good thing.) (But who am I kidding?  Thread drift is practically a S'march hallmark!)

It's been a long time since I first read these books so there's lots that I don't remember, and I'm looking forward to rediscovering the intricate details of the story and figuring it all out again during course of the re-read.  That's what I was trying to convey.

I think the fun thing about a re-read is that everybody already knows the books, so you don't have to worry about spoiling it for the others when you talk about things that are yet to come. Some things just suddenly make a lot of sense now that you know what's going to happen later on. I love drawing those connections between scenes and chapters throughout the books. But it certainly makes sense for me to discuss things when they actually happen in the books and not 17 chapters ahead such as 'I think I dimmly remember that in book three...'
A bit of a balancing act, but maybe possible :)

 

#67 2010-11-21 15:19:40

xavie
Pilgrim
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2006-01-22
Posts: 1566
Website

Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Neemo wrote:

where does it mention when the story takes place?

i thought it was later than 2045

i seem to recall Jonas as being an anomoly to the regular programming of otherland....or maybe WW2 sim wasnt really otherland but some kind of holding place....then he somehow gets blasted into the place (Sellars steering him toward the tree and hacking it somehow?)

I think it's never officially stated. I seem to rememer that I read or heard somewhere that it's supposed to be taking place some 50 years in the future - hence the year 2045. I didn't make clear enough that it was only a guess.

 

#68 2010-11-21 15:27:03

xavie
Pilgrim
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2006-01-22
Posts: 1566
Website

Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Libra-in-a-roundabout-way wrote:

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

xavie wrote:

I never really understood what happened when Paul got hit by the shell. If you can die from mortal wounds in otherland, then why doesn't he die?

I don't understand this either. Anyone have an explanation up their sleeve? Maybe... maybe the shells and bombs were only intended as a sort of "scare tactic" in the simulation, intended to keep Paul in his place, keep him scared and in the trenches. If the munitions weren't "real" even in the simulation, they would have no real effect.

(That's the best I've got).

Well.... (this is so against rules)... the Paul in WW is the actual vitual Paul and he stays in that simulation for the entire time... However, during the shell attack, probably because of the Other getting into things, he basically went through the Grail process... So the "real" virtual Paul dies, and reappears when the new cycle of that simulation starts, but there now is a copy (Grail process), which becomes the Paul that starts roaming all the network.... At least, this is my perception of things...

Gah.... this hurts my head....

Thank you. I also thought that the Other might have something to do with it, but I didn't really think it through. It makes a lot of sense this way.

 

#69 2010-12-04 05:09:01

furgie
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-12-04
Posts: 12

Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Olaf wrote:

Hmmm....but the Avialle bird-woman in the cloud castle refers to the two cruelest servants of her master, Butterball and Nickelplate. I assumed those were other incarnations of Finch & Mullett.

Most certainly. After all, Butterball and Nickleplate are the nicknames Avialle has given the original Finney and Mudd.

xavie wrote:

I never really understood what happened when Paul got hit by the shell. If you can die from mortal wounds in otherland, then why doesn't he die?.

I think it's because it wasn't the purpose of the simulation. Paul was to be kept in the limbo of endless WWI for as long a Mr. J. wanted him alive, so he couldn't just die. Probably he had the same kind of separation from the system that the Grail Bortherhood had. When he "freed" himself from this place and wandered into other simworlds, he was fair game, no longer protected - and not connected to his body, kept safe by Telemorphix.

 

#70 2013-07-17 23:15:03

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32661
Website

Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Magpie wrote:

Olaf wrote:

In the forword we meet several of the most important characters of the OTHERLAND books:
(…)
Mr. Sellars (yellow eyes)

Whoa, good observation, Olaf – I’ve never made that connection, even though this time round I finally noticed that Mr “Got a light” must be somehow involved with trying to free Paul. Is he Sellars himself, though? It seems so out of place with how he appears later, as that white figure.

Tad confirmed that it was, at the first reading in Stuttgart (when the German reading was from the foreword... or rather the entire foreword, I think... I'm too lazy to get my book and check...).
So, ylvs, it was actually Olaf who was being clever, not me.


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#71 2013-07-17 23:29:50

laDuchesse
Pilgrim
From: Ylvsfield / Dreamcountry
Registered: 2013-02-20
Posts: 275

Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

Yes, obviously. But I surely remember you saying something incredibly clever in these early chapters.
Will check laters what that was ...


I think Smarch might have a higher-than-average percentage of introverts.  It's probably what makes us so awesome. Magpie

 

#72 2013-07-18 09:36:32

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32661
Website

Re: Otherland Re-read Week 1: CoGS - Forward & Ch. 1 & 2 (SPOILERS)

I think it was something to do with the tree.
If I say it, it usually has to do with plants.


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 
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