in the MST re-read ages ago didnt we kick around the idea that she may actually have been the offspring of Ruyan

looking at it again...is it a possibility that Geloe is a half breed Zida'ya/Tinukeda'ya ?

I still think it's pretty interesting! And yeah, I forgot to mention that in my original post. The Zida'ya eyes are various shades of amber-gold, but not yellow, and Williams always describes her eyes as yellow. That's also an interesting little discrepancy to the rest of the theory (and kind of blows everything I wrote out of the water if you take it at its most literal, whoops).

Myself, I would think that she would be a descendant of the Tinukeda'ya, perhaps several generations removed. The only discrepancy is the yellow eyes. I believe the Tinukeda'ya have dark eyes, as Firsfron said... but again, it could be that they're just normal human eyes — yellow eyes are genetically possible, though it is rather rare.

Hmm. Food for thought, I guess. Unless we have the opportunity to go back to Osten Ard, we may never know. ;-)

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Here's where you need to read The Burning Man.

YEEEES. Not that I really needed an excuse to read it, but yes! I really need to hunt it down. More Osten Ard to read, hooray~

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Here is the link to the hardcover edition of Legends, from Amazon.com. Here is the paperback version, volume three. If you get the paperback version, be sure to get volume three, as this is the only volume with The Burning Man in it.

Here is the link on Amazon to the graphic novel version of The Burning Man, also worth getting.

Oooh, thanks! I am, however, slightly confused. The hardcover entry for Legends shows that the Tad Williams story is an Otherland entry, but after doing some digging around, it seems that the first book is the one that has The Burning Man in it. This would be good if it were actually in the second volume, since that's the one that my library has.

Unfortunately, my library doesn't have the other one. Foo. I guess I can go look for the paperback volume, though. And the graphic novel looks intriguing.

Thanks for the info!

Edit: My bad, the library does have both volumes! And apparently one of them is not actually sorted properly, and does not come up when you run a search for the title or the full title. Durhurr. :P

Last edited by ReynardFox (2010-06-03 13:58:44)

cyan wrote:

It was always my impression this "bow" refered to the boat-part rather than the archery-thing.

The funny thing is, I hadn't actually considered that option until my fifth or so reread of To Green Angel Tower. Funny, eh? But Aditu's mention of "Ruyan's Own" got me thinking about that detail. I think it's an interesting group of hypotheses, anyway. If Mr. Williams ever goes back to Osten Ard, it would be most interesting to see some more about Geloë! I always thought she was a neat character, right from the beginning.

That, and I loves me a good mystery. ;-D

Garuvul wrote:

if Geloe was ageless - as it appears she was - and she bears so many sithi traits, and is able to shape herself, could she be the child of a sithi-dwarrow pairing?

The ageless state isn't only an inherited attribute, it can also be learnt. So I guess a human can learn to be ageless like the Sithi.

From volume 6, around p. 280: Zid'ya withhold the secret of life from Tinuked'ya.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

The Tinukeda'ya's ability to shape themselves, albeit over great spans of time, seems somewhat similar to Geloe's shape-shifting abilities.

Is there a chance Geloë shifts shape using the "words of transformation"? Since she said to Deornoth that her magic has its price.

When Pryrates wanted to learn the "words of transformation" the Red Hand member said it would cost great pain to use them.

It seems Pryrates felt more pain though, but their transformations seem more similar to each other than the slower shape shifts of Tinuked'ya.

Last edited by Dimma (2010-08-19 14:31:04)

It was my thought always that she has/had some kind of affinity with birds, being able to shift into a bird (an owl, thinking about the eyes) at will, and has done so many times.

This is such an interesting question with such a vast amount of possible answers. For the longest time I just considered her as a vastly learned human, but I have to say the strongest suggestion she is more is the "Ruyan's Own" phrase. I would expand that to "one of Ruyan's own (blood)", meaning someone related to Ruyan in a directly descendant line. Another reason not to think she is the wife of Ruyan is time. As some of you have pointed out, dwarrows don't live forever, and generations have passed since they arrived in Osten Ard.

When I try to think of Ruyan as a character in the history of Osten Ard, I don't see how he, as a figure-head of the Tinukeda'ya could claim a Sitha wife when his race finally is emerging out a form of slavery to the Zid'aya. Especially not since the Tinukeda'ya have not learned to forgive the Sithi. I'm pretty sure they would have done so if their leader said they could now all get along. But it's pretty obvious that they don't. So, I don't think Geloe is a  Tinukeda'ya/Zid'aya offspring. I guess she could be Tinukeda'ya/human, though I see nothing to say either way in that case.

Firsfron of Ronchester wrote:

Good analysis, Kenan. But what do you make of the eye color? Ruyan's folk, the Dwarrows and Niskies, have black eyes. Geloe's are gold. If she is of Ruyan's blood, should she not have their eye color? Then again, the Tinukeda'ya can shape themselves, so maybe not.

I suppose my feeling is that people are giving the eye-colour too much importance. And I believe Tad has made a mistake in giving Niskies and Dwarrows the same eye-colour. I am not currently  read up on the subject, but I do believe evolution theory will tell you that eye pigmentation has to do with what kind of light the creature lives in. So an animal that lives underground for so long, and who has an ability to adapt, would change its eye colour to suit the circumstances, and be able to absorb more light.
I always felt that Geloe's yellow eye was just an animalistic touch, to make her appear more wild, or at least closer to nature.

Another good point about the Tinukeda'ya not forgiving the Zida'ya. Hard to imagine their leader taking a Zida'ya wife when the Tinukeda'ya and Zida'ya aren't even on speaking terms for (what is probably) thousands of years. What is certain is that they were estranged since well before the year 663, likely long before that.

Then again, there was one group of Tinukeda'ya which were not estranged from the Zida'ya, and who never left Asu'a; they tended the Witchwood groves and died when Asu'a fell. Kenan, what do you make of the possibility of Geloe coming from that group?

I had forgotten about that group of Tinukeda'ya. I guess it could make sense that Geloe is a descendant of that group, maybe she is the last descendant of the group who dwelt with the Sithi in Asu'a. And I suppose it does make it possible for a mix of Tinukeda'ya and Zida'ya. But if so, I somehow feel it would have made enough impact to be mentioned, or change something of the attitude in the Dwarrows for instance. Or why doesn'tthe Sithi mention it when they talk about their dept to the Tinukeda'ya? Also, it could be mentioned when they say it is possible for Humans and Sithi to mate, that they know they can mate with Tinukeda'ya also.

No argument seems so strong that it excludes any of the theories of Geloe's descent, I'm just navigating (no pun intended) my own thoughts towards that she is probably a Tinukeda'ya after all.