Tad Williams' Message Board

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#1 2010-03-18 13:32:21

Aan`allein
Hierarch
From: The Netherlands - occasionally
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 6071
Website

The fireflower (spoilers)

Shadowrise spoilers abound! Shadowrise spoilers abound! Shadowrise spoilers abound!

So... how's this going to resolve? The obvious neat solution is for Qinnitan to receive the fireflower from the Qar queen, and she and Barrick will rule happily ever after. But y'know, this is Tad at work here. Neat and simple solutions just ain't him. So... will the fireflower be passed on at all, or how will things resolve?

The best Tad-like solution I've been able to think of so far is that Yassamez will receive the queen's fireflower instead, keeping the memories alive on the Qar side (the two of them seem to be much more of the same mind with their dislike of humans, and would both want to prevent humans from getting the other fireflower), while continuing to protect the other half of the line through Barrick (who'll still hook up with Qinnitan to make the gift stronger there for at least the next generation?). This also sidesteps the otherwise inevitable problem which eternal inbreeding would bring with brother-sister marriages in a mostly-human line (I'm assuming the Qar have some kind of magicky property which means that inbreeding doesn't affect them, and probably at the same causes each subsequent couple to always neatly give birth to at least one boy and one girl).

Thoughts?


Mozilla developer comment of the however long it'll be this time:
<Mossop> run for the hills!
<Boriss> i can't, i'm at a local maximum!


Just Imagine...

 

#2 2010-03-28 21:43:07

john23b
Pilgrim
From: Asheville, NC USA
Registered: 2010-03-16
Posts: 13

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

I don't know about that.  Yasammez already holds the fireflower, she did not pass it along like her siblings.  What if Barrick finds a way to revive Crooked or take his place -- thus holding back whatever it is on the other side of that door?  As for the inbreeding, could that not be responsible for some of the more malformed of the Qar?  Although the king said that had to do with "the first gift" whatever that is.  Also the mortal lines here in our own reality have indulged in a little inbreeding anyway, but that does not mean I would relish a Barrick/Briony situation.  But I guess it isn't out of the question (small shudder)

 

#3 2010-03-29 00:08:11

ChaosSong
Pilgrim
From: On the Roof
Registered: 2009-07-14
Posts: 16

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

I don't think Barrick's gonna make it, guys.

In my opinion he has been reeking of doom since Chapter One.

Now, Tad doesn't always do what's expected which is one of the main reasons I read him, but my instincts are telling me that a character who bathes in doom and despair like our red-haired prince is foreshadowing his grim fate.

I hadn't thought of Barrick and Qinnitan as a love-match, but I'm sure they will meet and discover that they are half-siblings.  Maybe the incest factor is what prevented me from seeing that but, given the tradition of incest in the Qar nobility, I must admit that that's a perfectly plausible outcome that I hadn't considered.  Perhaps the discovery will come after the match in true dramatic form.

 

#4 2010-06-07 05:31:21

Neemo
Pilgrim
From: Hamilton, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-03-28
Posts: 921
Website

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

yeah we need to find out Qinnitans origins, obviously with the red streak of hair she has some Qar blood as well

maybe someone will talk lady porcupine into passing her fire flower to her son?

what of the autauch trying to sacrifice Oloin to control Kernios? yeah like thats gonna work :haha:

I think Briony will rule southmarch and Barrick will rule qar, thus reviving the relations between the 2 races

does having the fire flower grant eternal life?

 

#5 2010-06-11 00:16:37

Firsfron of Ronchester
Mantis
From: Ronchester
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 23107
Website

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

ChaosSong wrote:

I don't think Barrick's gonna make it, guys.

In my opinion he has been reeking of doom since Chapter One.

Now, Tad doesn't always do what's expected which is one of the main reasons I read him, but my instincts are telling me that a character who bathes in doom and despair like our red-haired prince is foreshadowing his grim fate.

I hadn't thought of Barrick and Qinnitan as a love-match, but I'm sure they will meet and discover that they are half-siblings.  Maybe the incest factor is what prevented me from seeing that but, given the tradition of incest in the Qar nobility, I must admit that that's a perfectly plausible outcome that I hadn't considered.  Perhaps the discovery will come after the match in true dramatic form.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who considered that.


Scrollbearer, Keeper of the Firsfronicon, Message Board Poet Lariat and Guardian of the Wild Range.
Co-titan of fact-checking and priceless source of Osten-Ard-iana
Now-official Osten Ard consultant for Tad Williams

Ommu is horrifying; Akhenabi is f**king evil; Makho is Trump with a badass sword; Jijibo is the crackhead version of Towser.  And Saomeji is creepy. --Cyan

 

#6 2010-06-26 15:49:25

27Frogs
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-06-18
Posts: 14

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

I agree Barrick Qinnitan is the easiest solution for who rules the Qar - they always seemed like a love-match to me - but who gives Qinnitan the fire-flower? The current queen does not seem like Barrick's biggest fan, I don't think she would pass hers on to another human. Can Barrick and the current queen rule together and create the next generation or is she too weak?
If Qinnitan is not Barrick's lover/fairy bride, what does she do? She seems pretty important, but aside from running away she hasn't really done much yet.
In terms of Barrick getting offed, he has the fire-flower now, if he doesn't make it, it seems like the Qar are kinda done? Perhaps he passes it on again? Maybe to Qinnitan?
I like the idea that Barrick takes Crookeds place. That would allow him to save the Qar but still "die". I hadn't considered that he wasn't going to make it, though thinking about it now I see everyone's point about him "reeking of doom" - then again what's a more unexpected turn than him gaining immortality? (although replacing Crooked seems seems like a combination of death and immortality)
I was a little unclear on "where" Crooked is and what he is doing - I guess I missed that he is holding back something. But it seems like his "death" is happening independent of the destruction of the Qar and everything else that is happening?
That is an interesting point about Yasamez - why doesn't she just pass her fire-flower on? She's so angry her people being whipped out she's ready to commit genocide in retaliation - but not sacrifice her own immortality to save them. Maybe Barrick passes his fire-flower to Qinnitan and Yasamez passes hers to her son and they rule the Qar
One thing I think, Crooked is going to be summoned, or raised, or whatever, in some form. The autarch has come an awful long way just to get turned around by Yasamez. Also, I think that's what Hedon Tolly is trying to do as well? So, my question is, what happens when he gets there? Squishes the annoying autarch hopefully... then restarts the Qar with Yasamez, and Barrick takes his place? Or maybe he just can't be summoned fully because he's too weak, so they hold a big ritual and it fails but whatever he's holding back comes through?
I like the symmetry of Barrick ruling the Qar and Briony ruling Shadowmarch - the two twins, the strange one ruling the fairies.
I think Briony is being set up as the next monarch. What do you guys think? Also, does she end up with Ferras Vansen or Eneas?

Last edited by 27Frogs (2010-06-29 13:57:57)

 

#7 2010-06-28 23:53:43

sigcool
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-06-28
Posts: 1

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

Is this a flaw in the story, but how could Ynnir pass on the fireflower?  I thought this process takes great strength and cannot be done alone, thus only at the shining man. Previously he was too sicken with age to manage this even for his own son (pgs 476,477).  But two centuries later a dying and very weak Ynnir NOW can pass it along??? And in his own hall with no travel necessary?  Very convenient, but this doesn't make sense to me.

Last edited by sigcool (2010-06-28 23:54:20)

 

#8 2010-06-29 13:55:29

27Frogs
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-06-18
Posts: 14

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

Previously he wanted to pass it on to his son, but his son had been killed. But your right, I think he said they had to travel to the Shining Man and have a ceremony there to pass it on. Maybe it has something to do with the Pact of Glass? (which I never fully understood - I'm hoping this is because it wasn't fully explained and not just because I missed something :) - though I'm excited to reread anyway).

 

#9 2010-06-29 13:56:58

27Frogs
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-06-18
Posts: 14

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

Sorry duplicate post :(

Last edited by 27Frogs (2010-06-29 13:58:29)

 

#10 2010-06-29 14:21:01

Neemo
Pilgrim
From: Hamilton, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-03-28
Posts: 921
Website

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

ah yeah....the glass shard maybe gave him enough power to perform the ceremony

 

#11 2010-07-12 15:59:14

SkurnTheNiffyRaven
Pilgrim
From: Vienna, Austria
Registered: 2008-12-08
Posts: 38
Website

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

i recently finished shadowrise and my first thought was also the barrick-quinnitan solution ...
but maybe tad read this guess, and changed the story ... or he wants the reader to think about this option and then there will be the ultimate unexpected ending ... anyway cant await shadowheart!!!!


Dew rises, rain falls.
Between them is mist.
Between them lies all that is.

 

#12 2010-07-13 14:03:59

27Frogs
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-06-18
Posts: 14

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

I wonder how long he's known how he wanted to end it? From when he first started the series, or the idea for the ending developed later? If he knew how he wanted to end it, I wonder if his idea for the ending changed at all in the course of writing the books? There are so many plot twists, I would think the easiest way to think all those up is to start at the end (for example, a human king kidnaps the Qar queen), and then think what the consequences of the event would be, and how the characters would act if they didn't know what had happened. But I don't write epic fantasy series, so I'm just guessing :).
Does anyone know if Shadowheart is finished? I thought I had read that in another thread.

 

#13 2010-07-13 17:17:38

strangeshe
Hierarch
From: Texas
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 11555

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

Yes, SHADOWHEART is finished -- for the most part. Tad spent a long teleconference end of last week with his editors to wrap up a few final touches, and he's making the last few tweaks to get it all pretty and everything. ;)

Won't be long now. As far as I can tell, it's still on schedule for November release.

 

#14 2010-12-03 10:32:42

Aan`allein
Hierarch
From: The Netherlands - occasionally
Registered: 2001-06-04
Posts: 6071
Website

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

Shadowheart spoilers abound!

Shadowheart spoilers abound!

Shadowheart spoilers abound!

I thought it'd be interesting to return to this thread a book later...

Aan`allein wrote:

So... how's this going to resolve? The obvious neat solution is for Qinnitan to receive the fireflower from the Qar queen, and she and Barrick will rule happily ever after. But y'know, this is Tad at work here. Neat and simple solutions just ain't him.

So, everything considering... this was surprisingly neat and simple. Except perhaps for the happily every after, which is still something of an unknown. (If this wasn't Tad, I'd say it was the obvious set up to a sequel tri^H^H^Hquadrology. *g*)

This also sidesteps the otherwise inevitable problem which eternal inbreeding would bring with brother-sister marriages in a mostly-human line (I'm assuming the Qar have some kind of magicky property which means that inbreeding doesn't affect them, and probably at the same causes each subsequent couple to always neatly give birth to at least one boy and one girl).

Ok, so there was nothing more than tradition on the Qar side keeping the fireflower going to descendants rather than to a random someone with the tiniest drop of Crooked blood. Guess that problem's been solved, then. :)


Mozilla developer comment of the however long it'll be this time:
<Mossop> run for the hills!
<Boriss> i can't, i'm at a local maximum!


Just Imagine...

 

#15 2010-12-07 17:24:20

Percephene
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-11-26
Posts: 25

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

Aan`allein wrote:

Shadowrise spoilers abound! Shadowrise spoilers abound! Shadowrise spoilers abound!

So... how's this going to resolve? The obvious neat solution is for Qinnitan to receive the fireflower from the Qar queen, and she and Barrick will rule happily ever after. But y'know, this is Tad at work here. Neat and simple solutions just ain't him. So... will the fireflower be passed on at all, or how will things resolve?

Was anyone else more than just a bit disappointed at how neat and tidy the whole thing wrapped up? Barrick & Quinnitan, Briony & Vansen, Gailon & Elan, Hendon satisfyingly dead, Tinwright & the players, Flint with his 4 mothers off to find himself, Shaso returned home in dignity for burial, I mean even minor chars like Skurn & Beck got resolved with happy endings, it felt just a bit too happily ever after for my tastes.

 

#16 2010-12-08 17:30:27

Magpie
Mantis
From: miraculously thistle-free town
Registered: 2006-03-27
Posts: 32652
Website

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

I don't know if it'll be "ever after", but personally I rather like a "happily for a while after". ;)

I was wondering today, if Crooked is now living on in Flint, could he give Qinnitan the strength to wake up again?


Basically, I'm Prince Josua in jeans and sneakers, or a different flavor of Renie Sulaweyo.
- Tad

Master of Gardening, Mistress of Kingdom Plantae, Defender of the Seedlings, Guardian of Root and Bough
Scrollbearer and offerer of some very useful opinions

 

#17 2010-12-08 20:31:53

Percephene
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-11-26
Posts: 25

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

Magpie wrote:

I was wondering today, if Crooked is now living on in Flint, could he give Qinnitan the strength to wake up again?

Ooooh I hadn't twigged to that, I thought he'd just sort of been reborn as a new God a la Eriond. But that makes more sense, Zoria being his mother...

 

#18 2010-12-12 07:53:39

Queenling
Pilgrim
From: Sweden
Registered: 2010-12-12
Posts: 10

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

Percephene wrote:

Was anyone else more than just a bit disappointed at how neat and tidy the whole thing wrapped up? Barrick & Quinnitan, Briony & Vansen, Gailon & Elan, Hendon satisfyingly dead, Tinwright & the players, Flint with his 4 mothers off to find himself, Shaso returned home in dignity for burial, I mean even minor chars like Skurn & Beck got resolved with happy endings, it felt just a bit too happily ever after for my tastes.

You forgot Chert & Opal with little Alessandros ;)
Actually, I'm not disappointed, I like the ending, but I wouldn’t have minded if more people had died, either. What I cared most for, though, was Briony/Vansen, and that Barrick would remember how much Briony once ment to him. I had waited for their reunion since they were separated, so I’m not completely satisfied with how little they spoke before he left. I had expected Barrick to be king of the Qar (with Qinnitan as his queen) and Briony queen of Southmarch even before I began reading Shadowheart, still I was sadden to read their short goodbye (probably because they didn’t sit down for a proper conversation first…) But the more I think of it, the more I like it as it is.

Magpie wrote:

I was wondering today, if Crooked is now living on in Flint, could he give Qinnitan the strength to wake up again?

For a short moment, I actually thought he would do that in the book, but perhaps he's not strong enough yet. Anyhow, if we now take for granted that Qinnitan wakes up, one way or another, and she and Barrick get children... will they pass on the Fireflower to them, and the inbreeding go on? Since both are human it feels a little problematic and disgusting. So I figured, if Flint grows up to become Crooked, a god rather than a human, he might as well give birth to a new line of Qar (or some that are mostly-Qar anyway), who will be better fitted to possess the Fireflower than Barrick and Qinnitan, who therefore will pass it on to them, while he (Flint/Crooked) himself gets the role of the line's guardian that Yasammez had while she lived. Hmmm?

 

#19 2010-12-19 18:54:20

mmp
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-01-11
Posts: 3

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

I wish Qinnitan could have woke up. :(

 

#20 2010-12-26 05:51:49

gelrad
Pilgrim
Registered: 2010-08-23
Posts: 5

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

Percephene wrote:

Ooooh I hadn't twigged to that, I thought he'd just sort of been reborn as a new God a la Eriond. But that makes more sense, Zoria being his mother...

So Flint has 5 mothers, the fifth is Zoria as the mother of his Crooked essense (When he talked about the new Temple for Zoria he said there will be more people for his mother...)

 

#21 2011-02-12 16:22:34

Bahn
Pilgrim
Registered: 2011-02-12
Posts: 3

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

SPOILER

sigcool wrote:

Is this a flaw in the story, but how could Ynnir pass on the fireflower?  I thought this process takes great strength and cannot be done alone, thus only at the shining man. Previously he was too sicken with age to manage this even for his own son (pgs 476,477).  But two centuries later a dying and very weak Ynnir NOW can pass it along??? And in his own hall with no travel necessary?  Very convenient, but this doesn't make sense to me.

This is what the Mirror was for. Flint was giving the mirror to draw from the Silver Lake (Crooked's Blood) under Southmarch Castle. He gave the Mirror to Yasammez who gave it to Gyir who entrusted it to Barrick to give to Ynnir. He and Saqri couldn't travel to the 'Last Hour' so they had it brought to them to perform the ritual... it was barely enough.

:)

 

#22 2011-03-29 13:23:25

fantastik
Pilgrim
Registered: 2011-03-29
Posts: 2

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

What happened to pigeon? Was it really all pointless having him tag along with Qinnitan and lose bits of his ear and his fingers?? Or was he just a tool to show how the fireflower detaches Qinnitan from the world the way it detaches Barrick from Briony...

 

#23 2012-01-26 07:49:44

M.R.P.
Pilgrim
Registered: 2012-01-26
Posts: 1

Re: The fireflower (spoilers)

Great Books. I have a question that may seem obvious to some...Why are the gods sleeping? Why are they inactive. I know that they are timeless, but sleeping?

 

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